Camo coming from Lorenzo - Helmet cover

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

thanks Tom for the infos.

See You

Vince

[jimt]

Weighing in after reading weeks of these discussions. I do not collect SS or high end items, but read these threads to gain knowledge and avoid pitfalls. From my perspective the details provided regarding the methodology of construction of these covers cast serious doubt as to the authenticity of the covers in question. Examination of originals by others, knowledge of sewing and manufacturing techniques of the 40's and comparison of those details to recent sewing machine patterns and idiosyncrasies can provide doubt beyond a reasonable suspicion.

It may not prove WHO made the covers, but it is enough for me to want to avoid having one (or any because of the doubt). If some of you want to hang on your notion that doubt is not enough, that is your choice.

Yes, these are serious allegations, and I am still wondering where are all the high end dealers who purchased and passed these on later who are defending the covers. Typically, when something is in doubt, one would turn to the indicators that remove the doubt. I have yet to see that. Its almost as if some are "pleading the 5th".

To me, the key points regarding real or not lie in the images portraying the angle of the cloth's orientation and the machine sewing patterns of the thread. Those were enough for me to decide to stay away. In the meanwhile I await the evidence provided that refutes these suppositions. This isn't court, so innocent until proven guilty carries no weight! THis is about the integrity of the collecting community

What I do know, is that it takes bollocks to point out these types of concerns and if no one is willing to do so in the hobby, then it will continue to be tainted by this aura of complicity among collectors. If the community piles on like dogs against one who is pointing such things out, who will want to stand up and be counted. We will all suffer in the end along with this hobby.

Let us see the defense by those who own these covers. Grab you bollocks and post your cover here and make your points here. We could all learn from your comments.

YES, the angle of the cloth orientation , that tells the entire story ......... very good advice .

[RoyA]

YES, the angle of the cloth orientation , that tells the entire story ......... very good advice .

That's a red herring.

[17thairborne]

That's a red herring.

Explain why!

[Disco Partisan]

Explain why!

It has already been explained and illustrated here before.

Once again here are the pictures of the "diagonal orientation" on original helmet covers including from the "Bavarian hoard"

[Scott A. Hess]

Of course there is the standard regarding sewing these items and any other cloth Items. However, what many people fail to understand is the standard is first and foremost entirely dependent on the type of garment and thus the cloth which is being used. Tailoring, sewing a thicker cloth requires a heavier weight (strength)of thread. Thicker thread requires greater stitch spacing, and the use of a thicker beefier stronger needle. Conversely, sewing together very light weight cotton allows the use of a lighter weight of thread (cotton used in most cases), a lighter needle and thus if desired a smaller stitch length. The first thing a seamstress will do using any machine is to adjust the machine for the weight of the fabric, this then as described above and tell us what type of bread, needle, stitch length, and tension will be required. Just like today, the Germans and anybody else, used various weights of thread. This is obvious from just general sewing knowledge and the hundreds of various spools of threads which one can buy on the forum any day. Cloth weight determines thread weight which determines stitch length which determines needle . The Germans didn't invent this, it's just part of machine sewing garments.

[BenVK]

It wasn't seamstresses who were sewing these things together by the thousands.
It was the inmates at Dachau and the forced labour at places like the Lodz Ghetto etc etc.

[Scott A. Hess]

It wasn't seamstresses who were sewing these things together by the thousands.
It was the inmates at Dachau and the forced labour at places like the Lodz Ghetto etc etc.

I understand your point, but a sewing machine neither cares or knows whose operating the it. It still has standards of operation and needs to be used correctly to function. The Lodz ghetto turned out many many different types of gatments, tropical,winter and continental,quality of workmanship was excellent. Dachau, Ravensbruck, that's a bit different. And yes, Although these people were inmates of horrible and Brutal systems, in most instances they were seamstresses and Tailors by trade. THey had quotas and anyone who didn't know how to operate a machine properly would certainly not have been doing so for very long. With hundreds of thousands, millions of people entering these camps and ghettos, the Germans were able to select from them people who were Tailors and seamstresses.

[Disco Partisan]

Of course there is the standard regarding sewing these items and any other cloth Items. However, what many people fail to understand is the standard is first and foremost entirely dependent on the type of garment and thus the cloth which is being used. Tailoring, sewing a thicker cloth requires a heavier weight (strength)of thread. Thicker thread requires greater stitch spacing, and the use of a thicker beefier stronger needle. Conversely, sewing together very light weight cotton allows the use of a lighter weight of thread (cotton used in most cases), a lighter needle and thus if desired a smaller stitch length. The first thing a seamstress will do using any machine is to adjust the machine for the weight of the fabric, this then as described above and tell us what type of bread, needle, stitch length, and tension will be required. Just like today, the Germans and anybody else, used various weights of thread. This is obvious from just general sewing knowledge and the hundreds of various spools of threads which one can buy on the forum any day. Cloth weight determines thread weight which determines stitch length which determines needle . The Germans didn't invent this, it's just part of machine sewing garments.

When talking about different threads used in helmet covers we are looking at just slight differences of pretty much the same type of thread / not extreme differences like light-weight or heavy weight of thread that you are comparing. Look at the posted examples, there are no super-heavy weight of thread used but you can see there is a variety of threads used and different stitching "styles" that was the point.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

totally with you Scott on your reply.
The terrible word "selection" was used ad nauseam (if i can use that word virtually) by the nazis, and from late 1943 up to 1945 the remaining jewish and not jewish inmates in the very very few locations in the Reich/East were really specialists.

See You

Vince

[RobertE]

YES, the angle of the cloth orientation , that tells the entire story ......... very good advice .

Refuted - another smokescreen passed off by the experts as a method of exposing fakes, and eagerly embraced as truth by casual followers.

See post 185: the "cloth orientation myth" is wrong, as is the "puffs" observation and others. Original covers and the newly discovered batch from the warehouse as discovered by Horsetrader refute this "truth".

No one is protecting anyone here, and I don't own a helmet cover that is suspect. Before embracing the myth regarding sewing thread length, quality of alignment, and thread type, take a close look at original items in your collection. If you have hundreds of items, like I and others do, you will immediately see that the concept of stitch length and thread diameter being solely a determining factor is ludicrous. Field items were made in conditions that placed the seamsters under duress, and the results were both precise and imperfect. That's the truth.

regards, Robert

[RobertE]

When talking about different threads used in helmet covers we are looking at just slight differences of pretty much the same type of thread / not extreme differences like light-weight or heavy weight of thread that you are comparing. Look at the posted examples, there are no super-heavy weight of thread used but you can see there is a variety of threads used and different stitching "styles" that was the point.

Correct. Sewing 101 is not the issue here, and the thread weights are not the point. You will see that the original AND suspect examples posted have various thread TYPES, in that they are all different threads materials; they are neither heavier nor lighter and thread length is all over the place on items posted as original and replica.

regards, Robert

[Scott A. Hess]

Correct. Sewing 101 is not the issue here, and the thread weights are not the point. You will see that the original AND suspect examples posted have various thread TYPES, in that they are all different threads materials; they are neither heavier nor lighter and thread length is all over the place on items posted as original and replica.

regards, Robert

I disagree sewing is an issue, it's an issue with button holes, ramp supports and covers, hats...anything that requires a machine. Seeing a picture tells one very little about the weight and type of thread used. It all matters, that's why most fakers don't get things right, but what you use as your benchmarks for originality are up to you. IMO everything counts.

[RobertE]

I'm not saying it doesn't count, I'm saying it doesn't apply. The thread types shown are appropriate for the type of fabric being sewn.

s/f Robert

[BenVK]

I understand your point, but a sewing machine neither cares or knows whose operating the it. It still has standards of operation and needs to be used correctly to function. The Lodz ghetto turned out many many different types of gatments, tropical,winter and continental,quality of workmanship was excellent. Dachau, Ravensbruck, that's a bit different. And yes, Although these people were inmates of horrible and Brutal systems, in most instances they were seamstresses and Tailors by trade. THey had quotas and anyone who didn't know how to operate a machine properly would certainly not have been doing so for very long. With hundreds of thousands, millions of people entering these camps and ghettos, the Germans were able to select from them people who were Tailors and seamstresses.

I completely understand your point as well Scott.

However, IMO, it's a mistake to judge the authenticity of an item, wholly or in part, on the skill (or lack of) of the sewing machine operator.

If we did that, a hell of a lot of original items would not pass the test.

For example, this cover which is one of the those found by horsetrainer, is extremely poorly sewn together. They couldn't even fold the fabric neatly. Anyone with just the slightest bit of sewing knowledge can surely see that for themselves.

Does that make it a fake then? I don't have the experience with helmet covers to say for sure but I like it more than I don't precisely because it's been so poorly made.