SS tunic

[kammo man]

What an idiot behaviour

This guy always cracks me up.

[Marcel Banziger]

The SS subforum really shows itself here. Good to know the "big guns" are rather full of themselves apparently. YES, trying to make fun of those who are here to try and learn, ME, is NOT a way of showing a good collecting community. Glad at some of the other subforums things are much nicer

[NickG]

The SS subforum really shows itself here. Good to know the "big guns" are rather full of themselves apparently. YES, trying to make fun of those who are here to try and learn, ME, is NOT a way of showing a good collecting community. Glad at some of the other subforums things are much nicer

I tend to agree with that and I apologize for "taking the bait" and straying myself. I enjoy a good puzzle, hence my participation and a named Flemish
Wiking artillery officer tunic is a great find! It just needs some TLC (tender Loving care) to make it right! (and the price has dropped accordingly)
I hope it finds a good home now that we have the tag fully deciphered ! That should help the sale! Good luck to the seller(s)!

[Marcel Banziger]

I enjoy a good puzzle, and digging in history myself as well. Ok, I know nothing about SS tunics (not yet but learning) but I am digging into how the SS units worked. Digging into many memoirs from SS men, including Wiking and Das Reich to find out more about possible change of Waffenfarbe during the final stages of the war, when things starting to become chaotic and men from all brances were put together in new companies/platoons etc. I was hoping to find a lead there that could perhaps tell more about why this particular jacket has the Infantry Waffenfarbe instead of Artillery. As of yet I am still going through all my memoires and other books with unit histories.

A thought about the ghost Heer eagle that came up is, and yes, it can be farfetched however at the same time very plausible as well is that during a brief time the jacket was a display jacket at a tailor's store. As mentioned somewhere earlier, I had the jacket in hand and there are absolutely no stitch holes to be seen apart from 2 pinholes on top of the eagle's wings. Could it be that the tailor had this jacket in his shop on display with a Heer eagle pinned with 2 tailor's pins for display purposes? It's displayed in the shop, sunlight falls onto the jacket and leaves a faint shadow. In hands the shadow is only very faint, barely visible which means an eagle has been there only for a short period of time (while displayed?).

I won't comment on the cuff. I am not experienced enough to make a good call however I can say there's no glue residue. There is corrosion as said before with a layer of dust from years. That's all I can say about the cuff from having it had in hands. I can not and will not comment on originality, let that be clear.

All in all to me it's an interesting piece because of the digging into history it requires.

[NickG]

Voor de Nederlanders hier: Ik had zo gehoopt op een Wallonien connectie was geweest (de andere Roekens officier, medisch) want dan heb je een verklaring, van Heer naar SS. Bij een kleermaker met adelaar er tijdelijk op wie weet maar toch onwaarschijnlijk...
Ik zie trouwens WEL gaten rond om ook haken kruis heeft gezeten in de krans...had fotos al op draad geplaatst Dit is ECHT naald en draad schade hoor...Mijn mening: Gewoon verkeerd gerestaureerd ergens jaren 80 toen er geen internet was...altijd een gok in die tijd...Dit soort uniformen werden na de oorlog allemaal gestripped...9 op de 10...
Hoe de eppauletten en kraag spiegels er op zitten is natuurlijk ook geen kleermakers qualiteit en de man is niet bevordert dus zelf heeft hij geen hogere rangen er zelf op genaaid...(ergens in het veld snel) en de eppaluetten veranderen vanwege branche wissel zou kunnen maar in eind 44 en voorjaar 1945 was dat allemaal niet meer van belang meer...het was een ratjetoe van survivors in kampfgruppen... De juiste waffenfarbes was het laatste waar ze aan dachten! Maar goed dat is mijn mening. Echt geen connectie van Wiking naar DR?

Wat beter geweest was is eerst de Das Reich connectie ECHT uitzoeken en dan dit geheel aanbieden...Je weet dat zoiets meteen besproken gaat worden. Dan heb je je verhaal klaar (om het allemaal te verdedigen...) elke negatieve punt! Wat nu niet gelukt is...Kijk de mouwlint is moeilijk dus dat uitzoeken heeft wel baat maar meer baat is Roekens transfer waar Das Reich uitzoeken als dat bewezen was...dan is opeens de stap dat het toch een goede mouwlint is VEEL VEEL kleiner!

Nu is het een mismatch van Wiking artillerie man (etiket) met inf schouderstukken en DR mouwlint... en daar klopt geen barst van...(betreft borst adelaar, vooruit dan maar, her-gebruikt uniform, wie weet? Tweedehands is goedkoper! en die Hollandse taal pagina met DR artillerie verhaal waar Roekens niet eens in voorkomt is geen research! WAF is het beste forum, . De konnonnen (ik pretender dat NIET te zijn hoor!) weten echt alles betreft SS insignia...Dat is het probleem.
Verder een super uniform maar met wat blijvende vraagtekens betreft combinatie...A lot can happen in 70+ years!

Verder nog: en in de sales draad stond:
he went to bad Tolz ( SS junkerschule ) the 11the lehrgang september 9 1943 till 11th march 1944 where he was placed in the SS FLAK Ausb. u. ers. rgt Munchen. this regiment became a Unit of the SS DAS reich division at the end of March 1944 ...Mooi verhaal MAAR
volgens zijn "officier van de dag" order die ik geplaatst hebt (2 verschillende) was hij gewoon nog in Art.Reg.5 Wiking in juni 1944...3 maanden later!
12 juni en nog een keer 22 juni 1944 heeft hij wacht gelopen als "Fuhrer von Dienst" ...(post # 160, zoek het maar op!) Dus zat hij toen gewoon nog bij Wiking!
en een ersatz und ausbildungs eenheid blijft natuurlijk altijd bij dezelde "parent" divisie! Dat Regiment verhuist naar DR staat er geschreven? Onlogisch, elke trainings eenheid heeft zijn Eigen "supply and replacement unit" daarvoor! Die verhuizen niet naar een andere parent division. Klopt gewoon niet! of is het een onafhankelijke ersatz eenheid voor Flak troepen in het algemeen? dat zou kunnen! Het is zo-wie zo niet infantrie witte farbe gerelateerd! Er zitten gaten in het verhaal! Sorry!

gr
NickG
PS: sorry about the language! (for those who did not move on yet...), the Dutch are still hanging on...

[DonC]

OK, I have my martini now...

Guys, it's a hobby. It should be fun. If we take it too seriously all the time, it becomes work. Work becomes a job, and as we all know, jobs suck.

A little levity detracts nothing from the conversation. IMHO.

Don

[wolfslair44]

OK, I have my martini now...

Guys, it's a hobby. It should be fun. If we take it too seriously all the time, it becomes work. Work becomes a job, and as we all know, jobs suck.

A little levity detracts nothing from the conversation. IMHO.

Don

How true. Make it a double, shaken not stirred!

[NickG]

I'll drink to that! I am more of a beer drinkin' guy though! and Durer does rock! Picasso is a little too weird for me!
(I do like bread pudding soaked in Jamaican Rum punch!!)

Basically what I wrote (in Dutch) is that besides the lack of DR service proof and the waffenfarbe discrepancy and cuff being non text book...
the following discrepancy:
In the sales thread it was stated that this Untersturmfuhrer was placed in the SS FLAK Ausb. u. ers. rgt Munchen. It further states that this regiment became a Unit of the SS DAS Reich Division at the end of March 1944 when he went to DR as the seller further claimed.
I would love to see that research (I asked for it...not holding my breath...) but it does not matter...

If you look at the June 12 and June 22nd 1944 "OvD" duty roster for Officer of the Day duty (OOD) in Art. Reg 5. Wiking which I presented earlier on in post # 160, this untersturmfuhrer was clearly still in Wiking as late as June 1944...pulling guard inspection duty..so 3 months later...
In other words the sales story is full of holes with no clear DR connection...but nevertheless a nice named Artillery tunic for a Wiking Art.officer.
Most Germanic volunteer field grade officers already in Wiking in mid-late 1944 probably remained in Wiking for the duration of the war.
I know his companion (battle comrade) J.Vincx did! Same unit, same rank and function, same class graduate, same age and also survived the war!
Still a nice find. Needs some fixin', thats all! and that's just my opinion of course! Over and OUT!
PS: the seller did the right thing by altering his asking price based on what has been revealed here.He ran that idea by me in a PM. A good call!

[blackadder]

Er kunnen wellicht gaten in verhaal zitten... maar jij ziet gaten die er simpel weg niet zitten jongen... dat is nog 10x erger!
Ik ben meeer dan klaar met jou gespeculeer en jou theorien om ons stuk willens en weten onverkoopbaar en kapot te maken onder het mom van... " ik probeer alleen maar te helpen ". nee, zo kom ik ook aan 15.000 posts !
Die mouwband is goed of hij is slecht maar tot opheden is er nog niet Èèn die hier bewijs heeft geleverd. wij hebben deze informatie aangeleverd gekregen en dachte hier mee de zaak rond te hebben. Blijkt niet zo te zijn... mijn excuses. Maar daar is jou betweterige trieste gedrag en je amateuristische paint uitleg niet voor nodig.

Back in English.

Roughly translate I told Nick how much a appreciation i have for his endless efford to destroy our jacket.

[Jens]

Quote : "11th march 1944 where he was placed in the SS FLAK Ausb. u. ers. rgt Munchen. this regiment became a Unit of the SS DAS reich division at the end of March 1944 ..." Quote ends


This Regiment was a Artillery Replacement Unit i Mûnchen through out the war.

It did not become a part of 2 SS "Das Reich" . But It did surpply al units of the WSS with artillery officers. Most danish artillery officers were surplied from here or went here when a recouperating a wound at least on paper!

Regards Jens

[NickG]

I agree Jens...there is no clear connection between Wiking-Munich replacement depot - Das Reich Division in relationship to this officer, unless he was wounded
(a theoretical possibility per Jens) and sent there to recuperate but than going to Infantry branch in DR? From an artillery replacement depot?? Unlikely!
The reported transfer time line does not even match in his sales story...This of course based on my "Fuhrer von Dienst" reports from Wiking Art.Reg. 5. (post# 160)
A 3 month discrepancy if you believe the transfer to DR story!

In my defense BA stating that I single-handedly destroyed the tunic is of course BS. On the contrary I defended it but at the same time stating that it had issues that needed to be checked like the branch farbe change to name one issue (Infantry...not mentioned in the sales thread) + on top of that the "big guns" experts flagging the cuff title (not my area of expertise btw, so don't blame me!).

Furthermore I even deciphered the tag and eventually made a rock solid Wiking connection to this garment (IV abt. code for Artillery).
That enhanced the pedigree, further stating that I would not mind owning it and rebuilding it to what the tag represents, a Wiking officer. (fixing it)
Those are positive remarks on my part!

The bottom line is that the DR connection was not proven by the seller and that theory was pretty much dismantled by many of the participants here and that was the goal of this thread to get to the bottom of this, a thread that I did not even start ! Of course that did not sit well with the owner...Oh well!

The seller, (not taking Bob, Felix etc opinions on the CT seriously) now disgruntled, pretty much claimed in his sales thread that it was basically an untouched
W-SS time capsule (with a DR infantry link)...Well how many of those surface on a yearly basis? (one?)
That's why these things get carefully discussed, dissected and verified. The owner than did an about-face and lowered his price because of the holes in his story,
(+ questionable CT issue) but still blaming me.(In Dutch btw in Post 204, he is still defending the CT, as no other fakes exactly like this have been presented... Fine! His prerogative)
Instead in his defense he could have produced real Das Reich provenance. Now that would change a lot, but not everything! Let's wait and see ...

or just move on!
PS
Btw I have been used as a mouth piece (willingly) by some dealers who rather not get directly involved (furnishing information and images, inverted color trick). The reason is because they rather not get in the middle of this as they don't want to damage their reputation or cause friction with (potential) customers if something gets bad-mouthed (by them) They rather remain in the shadows! Lets get the record straight on that!
By no means is this a NickG solo crusade against BA! Not al all! I like the tunic a lot, especially now that we have more real facts about what it represents!
(a Wiking artillery officer, his war time "laufbahn")

[blackadder]

Or just move on...

that is what we will do. We decided to pull the jacket from the sale.
The lack of given proof - both Pro & con keeps a circle we can't step out.
We thank everybody for their input and withdraw the jacket to do more research to tie up the loose ends.
We have pulled some nice leads and they look promising. What ever the outcome, we will keep you posted.

We are sure there are people who will continue the research just like us and would like to ask to keep us posted too. Any info is more then welcome as long as it is fact based.

For now, thank you for help and efforts

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To be Continued ...
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