4th SS Polizei Division rank question

[NickG]

This one is what we are seeing in these images I believe ...and worn prior to the introduction of SS tabs...
I would like to pair these up...Anybody?

[jürgen]

Totally agree !

Nothing more to say

Or also maybee tabs on "cardboard" backing Like this pair??

Any.pics in wear ?

[jürgen]

Also a pic which Shows"smooth" tabs
A borrowed one

[NickG]

Maybe used...but the "tobacco colored" litzen are an earlier pattern from the 1930's period I believe...not 1940's...Used by LandesPolizei (LaPo) I think...
and early SchuPo...
The flat (smooth) silver pattern litzen is what the Polizei Division troops used based on period images...

Nice image with Russian POW's , again showing field gray shoulder straps...!

[jürgen]

Believe me nick , ive searched a lot :-)
But still cant find a text of the right branche colour

The Last mysterium ? ;-)

[NickG]

See here...a thread discussing the tobacco colored Polizei litzen...
(1936 introduction and phased out around 1941...silver was the norm during the war years...also for Pol.Div)

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=tobacco+color




.

[jürgen]

The only tunic i found on the WAF

Clear a grün ,not matching the tabs

[NickG]

It is a familar one...but thanks for sharing!
Its an enlisted surviving example that I would lesperately like to see, showing the pre 1942 Polizei pattern collar litzen
to remove any and all doubt what these looked like!

So in a synopsis:
Early enlisted had bottle green and field gray straps (WH style) with polizei green piped farbe, matching their green backed collar litzen
and Heer pattern field gray rank chevrons (winkels)
Later transitioning to black straps....black chevrons...while still retaining polizei collar insignia...
And finally in 1942 full Waffen SS insignia...so adding SS collar tabs...transformation complete.

Officers wore polizei backed green boards (similar to Heer Pz.Gren.officer boards) and polizei pattern (shiny) collar tabs
or Heer type bottle green tabs with inner farbe in polizei green, (Basically WH Pz green tabs...)as an alternative...more subdued for field use...
And finally SS tabs and SS boards with black backing farbe and branch nebenfarbe Waffen SS style...no difference with other SS Divisions.

[Zauberflöte]

Nick; prior to officially the feb '42 date the shoulder straps would indeed be M36 style dark green (NOT black) or M40 style field grey (just like Heer) but with police green piping and later with special Waffenfarbe f.e. art. (red) and pioneer (black).

This topic was recently covered as well: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=737340

[NickG]

Nick; prior to officially the feb '42 date the shoulder straps would indeed be M36 style dark green (NOT black) or M40 style field grey (just like Heer) but with police green piping and later with special Waffenfarbe f.e. art. (red) and pioneer (black).

This topic was recently covered as well: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=737340

I am a WAF junky...So I read a lot here! WOW how did I miss that thread?
What a coincidence! Same topic...
My research has to do with a uniform restoration...Had no clue this was already discussed...Thanks

[jürgen]

:-)

But iam not wanting to restore to a Artillery or Pionier

Thats to easy :-)


So guys ...

Come on You straps collectors

Show us the police green piped ones

[SCHUPO]

Part of the confusion with what was worn by the Polizei Division is the evolution of the German Police and this unit. The Polizei Division was made up entirely of policemen and they retained their rank and status, i.e. if severely wounded they would return to police service not to the Heer or W-SS for further service. This unit evolved over time and became the SS-Polizei Division at which time (generally speaking) they were kitted out in W-SS uniforms with SS rank insignia.

This unit is not to be confused with the earlier Landespolizei (LAPO) that evolved wearing thier diverse state uniforms and rank insignia into more militarized Luftwaffe and Heer soldiers. There was a period of time that these uniforms also had mixed Polizei and Heer insignia but they were not the Polizei Division so it is hard to sort their photographs out unless they are seen in the context of a photograph album.

For instance, one will see photographs of Pol Div Officers wearing police style collar tabs that have a green backing and solid aluminum Litzen and army style collar tabs that have a colored Waffenfarbe in the center of the Litzen. Both were worn and both were supplanted by SS rank collar tabs. These officers usually held dual ranks in the Polizei and the SS but their permanant Police rank was retained. I have researched one officer from the Polizei Division who served from the formation of the unit until surrender in 1945. He retained his Polizei rank as a Captain but had an SS rank as a Major. After the war he continued in service in the Polizei and rose to the rank of Polizei Direktor. Insignia is dependent upon the specific time one served in this unit. Refer to the three volume set on the History of the Polizei Division by Friedrich Husemann ("In Good Faith").

I hope this is helpful.

[JoeW]

These two pictures are from an album of a police musician who entered the Polizei Division in 1939. There are photos of pre-division service, training and service in France. The second photo is identified on the reverse with the notation of a town near Paris, August 1940.

[NickG]

Good stuff guys!
This soldier was probably in a mounted unit...I see spurs and riding boots (horse drawn equipment for sure!)
The Polizei Division was not very mechanized at that time... A second rate unit...
In his Polizei dress uniform you can see the early tobacco colored collar litzen...
Definitely not the later silver...

[JoeW]

The litzen was tobacco colored because he was only a Wachtmeister. A higher rank would have entitled him to aluminum/silver color. Yes those are spurs, but no horses in the album. He was a bandsman. Don't know why the spurs. Have to look closely at the album again. Perhaps a better shot of the shoulder boards.