4th SS Polizei Division rank question

[jürgen]

Nice a great pic !!!

The nco with dark green straps as with the m36

Also the runes Worn with proud as he wants everyone to See That he is inside :-)

[jürgen]

[NickG]

More examples...Close up of Jurgens photo! So mostly Black SS or field gray Heer pattern straps...(waffenfarbe color???)
NCO's usually black with Waffen SS tresse in early images...and no OrPo or SchuPo type polizei rank shoulderboards on combat uniforms... (except officers of course)

[jürgen]

I wouldnt say that these are Black Ss straps

The Ss didnt wore green Piped straps in that early war time or?

[NickG]

Last set...Note again some with fieldgray straps...field gray chevron even...insignia from Army sources??? shortages?
The other Gefreiter on the other hand does wear a black SS pattern "winkel" chevron...

[NickG]

I wouldnt say that these are Black Ss straps

The Ss didnt wore green Piped straps in that early war time or?

So you are saying Heer "bottle green" M36 straps? and field gray straps?
only later switching to SS black? No clue on waffenfarbe (in any?)...

So based on these images I guess they wore a hodge-podge early on...
For Pol.Div officers pre 1942 it was much more clear...Polizei pattern officer shoulderboards + Polizei pattern (polizei green) collar tabs or Army Bottle Green collar tabs (with Polizei waffenfarbe)


And according to your opa's paperwork pre 1942 their Polizei rank titles remained...(in soldbuch etc..) probably also Polizei rank insignia (like I showed in post 1)
but only on their Polizei pattern uniforms ! (dress uniforms)
However in the field on combat field gray tunics they wore a mix...but kept Polizei pattern collar litzen until 1942 (but no cord piping...)

[jürgen]

Agree !

Heer combat tunics , Ss arm eagle ,police tabs heer rank chevrons
All stated in....die guten glaubens waren ...part1

[jürgen]

We dont have a pic of police straps for EM in Wear ....

These reenactors are false

[NickG]

We dont have a pic of police straps for EM in Wear ....

These reenactors are false

OK so this web info is inaccurate...

[JoeW]

Would an NCO (like a Meister, senior NCO Polizei) have worn such Polizei pattern rank insignia in the 4th SS Polizei Division in 1939-1941?
(so pre 1942 when they became an official Waffen SS Division)
Its a little murky to me looking at photos of the early period...
What is clear is that they wore polizei collar tabs during that early period...its the shoulderboards/shoulder straps that I want to know more about!
in an attempt to find an answer I bought a photo book in German from the 1970's called "Die guten Glaubens waren. Bild band Geschichte der SS-Polizei-Division"
It was very expensive ($150) but unfortunately most images were from the later period (post 1942)

According to this reenactor web site they did where Polizei rank in the early period before being fully incorporated in the Waffen SS...

http://www.wwiilha.com/unif39-42.html.

Nick, is your the first printing? Perhaps a later printing screwed up the photos. Mine has quite a few of combat scenes from France and early Russia. Besides the photo volume, the unit history also came in Vol I and II which were a mix of some photos and text.

[NickG]

Nick, is your the first printing? Perhaps a later printing screwed up the photos. Mine has quite a few of combat scenes from France and early Russia. Besides the photo volume, the unit history also came in Vol I and II which were a mix of some photos and text.

My version of this book is from 1977 so 37yrs old...but the book is in mint (unread) condition...hence the high price ...it's only the "Bildband" that i have...
don't have the other ones (yet)...
It does have plenty of early pictures actually... appr. 1/2 the book is pre Waffen SS collar tab change showing polizei litzen 1942..). My earlier quote was inaccurate stating majority post 1942... It's just that many photos don't show clear shoulderstraps or collar insignia often covered with smocks, greatcoats.....

I am wondering if these early Polizei troops i(in field wearing SS/Heer tpe combat field gray tunics) , would still have worn Polizei pattern tunics and dress informs
(Polizei grreen brown cuffs +standard Polizei rank insignia etc) while not in combat? (On leave, barracks duty etc...)
The book mainly shows campaign pictures (mainly from PK sources no doubt) but also several early formation and parade images "Hundertschaft" (Polizei unit ndesignation)...and all wearing polizei uniforms and insignia still...

[NickG]

Some more examples...Compare....remains puzzling to me!
The greatcoat is armed forces pattern (so not a brown collar with green piping) so definately 4th Division related...
and with black SS style shoulderstraps...? or bottle green? compare shade with green collar!...appears lighter....


and portrait with light tan???color straps???Looks almost tropical???

[NickG]

Continuing the Polizei Division uniform photo study...Here some more examples from the pre 1942 campaign period...
Note NCO has black shoulderstraps...the rest field gray! (2nd image...1st image SS black it appears...)

[NickG]

Here again field gray shoulder straps... in the first example and black in the second example...

[NickG]

The collar tabs (polizei pattern collar litzen) are clearly all backed...
So its NOT like the "combat uniform litzen" as seen on later mid-war/late war Polizei combat tunics which are unbacked ...(1st image from my collection)

In the 2nd image shows Polizei collar litzen (from my collection) that I believe are the Blitzkrieg through 1942 pattern, and appropriate
for the "SS-Polizei Division"