Diebitsch #89 Allach candleholder - good one?

[Capt. R]

But is it reasonable for an unsigned example like this one appeared to be? Maybe it makes it more rare. I'm not convinced the camera flash obliterated the signature. Plus this one did not appear as detailed as a textbook example... what I was trying to determine in comparing the two.

[J. Wraith]

But is it reasonable for an unsigned example like this one appeared to be? Maybe it makes it more rare. I'm not convinced the camera flash obliterated the signature. Plus this one did not appear as detailed as a textbook example... what I was trying to determine in comparing the two.

Capt,

No, its really not reasonable in reality. Possible but extremely unlikely. I worked that photo for quite a while yesterday and can barley make the curvature above the mark for the signature as an anomaly. To my knowledge there has never been an unsigned example noted, thus my 99.5% assertion it was signed.

Regardless of what was said before on this thread about modernization and the SS striving to be perfectionists? that is really horse crap. What you see here with these candle holders is an economic concern that is losing money, not terribly important as they had deep pockets, but you have a clear change in manufacture not to improve or perfect, but to short cut and cut costs. This is apparent from 36 to 37 where it appears to change as they go forward. And again later in various ways. Their short labor, there's a war going on and these guys are changing up and its most noticeable in their commercial line of pieces. The idea that an upgrade to the Fahnentrager was due to perfectionism is o.k, but if they were so keen on being perfect why did they not upgrade his Gorget?. A Flieger officer with a removable sword? yeah that was an improvement and it came late but is most likely attributed to breakage as now you would not have to carry an entire piece or ship an entire piece to Allach and bog down labor with repairs and they could simply mail a sword to replace it with. This type of this shows itself in many pieces. The core concern for Allach was presentations and they amended them as well and even on a bad day its beautiful stuff. But make no mistake about it, they were simplifying things which is why a candle holder from 1940 is larger than one from 1936 and yet lighter with one firing hole as opposed to five.

So, I am not sure what your looking for here as far as answers. The piece that went off yesterday is signed 99.5% and I almost had it here but there is a problem with that piece and the base as well, not sure what it is but the quality is pretty poor. But the later models have a heavier glaze, the name is struck lighter than the mark and while you can easily see the mark, the name can be a true bitch to see in hand never mind photo it. Lot of information on Allach, much of it is unpublished and it probably never will be and the key is in the pieces themselves and takes a considerable amount of time to recognize their operation and how it operated. I'm convinced it obliterated the signature, but I am also weary of other anomalies with the base of the piece that do not fall in line.

[Capt. R]

Thanks for the clarification.

What I need to know is whether these 89s have been reproduced at all. If so, then the question becomes are these examples with a lack.of detail reproductions or original? There are many examples out there with this lack of detail...2 or 3 on this thread alone.

[J. Wraith]

Thanks for the clarification.

What I need to know is whether these 89s have been reproduced at all. If so, then the question becomes are these examples with a lack.of detail reproductions or original? There are many examples out there with this lack of detail...2 or 3 on this thread alone.

Capt,

Alright, I thought that may be where you were going and allow me to clear this up as someone who is familiar with the pieces and how their made. Much of it is in the porcelain manufacture industry and how people look at the pieces. Obviously their not badges or cloth, so you can toss a lot of criteria such as weight and measures out the window as they wont apply and if you try and apply them as I did years ago you will kill yourself.

Today we know many things we did not know before in regards to items of the period, some of it good and some not so good. But I had a recent episode here with some high end badges and was amazed at how good the fakes really are there as I wrangled with scales, photos, and micrometers. Lesson learned there for sure. One of the other aspects to note is who is who. For instance we now know that a mummified and medicated geriatric can establish a website take photos of original Allach porcelain, paste it in a pamphlet and add a Chinese address with a message to be aware of Chines fakes.

The amazing part is that some people actually believe it, albeit a small amount but since that time the questions become noticeable, and next thing you know you have a thread like this and some guy walking around the show picking up Allach and asking how to tell the difference between the Chinese and original Allach. The reality is much different, even with a candle holder or simple piece and there are many reasons for this. The first and most noteworthy reason is the fact that most duplicates or fakes are made of completed casts or pieces utilizing a mold method, these you can find in market in various form, but one site in particular is famous for this. So you can take a piece of porcelain from a mold and make a bronze for example. Porcelain is a little bit different and much more complicated. Complicating it further is the fact that Allach had a stacked house, they had the money and the resources to bring in the finest and most knowledgeable persons available at the time to design the figures, mold them, paint them, etc. To do this today you would need huge resources and the same formula. Hiring Chinamen at a dollar a day and a ration of rice will not do it. Pouring money into it would not work either, nor would it be cost efficient.

And then you run into the real problems. The manufacture of these figures will not allow for a simple molding and most any piece is multi piece construction. I think a little Munich Maiden maybe 5 pieces without grabbing my book. That means 5 molds and the need to have one in hand which is no big deal, but then you have to reproduce the process from start to finish. Its not happening easily. Even if they managed to get one done there would be flags all over the field the moment it got spotted.

Now if a Munich Maiden is 5 pieces, have a look at your presentations and reiter figures, how many pieces are they?. Short answer is a lot!!!. And they made them a certain way as well, and they changed some things to boot. They do not have access to those pieces and even if they did, there is no way their going to copy one. The Chinese have a better chance of landing on the moon and building a death star than copying a Fahnentrager or even a simple piece, if they tried it would not get far at all, even your candle holder would be a chore. There is no motive for the Chinese to come at the market for any reason and if a commercial entity attempted it, it would fail without question.

At this point in time there would be no chance of getting a fake of any model into market and certainly not a money piece without it being caught quickly. Not because of what is written as much as unwritten but I can assure you there is a lot to making these pieces. While the firm did cut costs and quality control as things got tight, the pieces still stand tall in comparison to others. This is true of most all of the manufacturers in general. Pre War German porcelain compared to today is night and day with few exceptions. Porcelain firms for centuries have struggled economically for centuries and the industry has been held up by the government countless times as its not economically easy as a business. So what would make the Chinese want to jump into that?. Even on a $1 a day and a small ration they could never get it done.

So, personally I would rest easy as the market is watched, these guys know how things were done, there are variations and anomalies on occasion but no one is knocking off Allach porcelain. And to answer your question, to my knowledge, there has never been a candle holder of any model knocked off or copied and what you see is a decline in quality control.

[Capt. R]

Thanks much...great insight here. I appreciate it.

[ErichS]

Well put Mr. wraith and I agree 100% with your statements.

[Thorsten B.]

Regardless of what was said before on this thread about modernization and the SS striving to be perfectionists? that is really horse crap. What you see here with these candle holders is an economic concern that is losing money, not terribly important as they had deep pockets, but you have a clear change in manufacture not to improve or perfect, but to short cut and cut costs.

To use your own words: that is horse crap.

The later new pieces were realized - the better and more perfect their way of manufacture. That´s a fact.

[J. Wraith]

To use your own words: that is horse crap.

The later new pieces were realized - the better and more perfect their way of manufacture. That´s a fact.

Not based on the photos of these pieces here obviously, does not take a brain surgeon to see that. The story is well known, the answers in many cases obscured or hidden, but the pieces tell the story and in the case of these candle holders its quality control and cost cutting and there is no way around that, its obvious or it should be.

So crap of all kinds is tossed by some and caught by others, catch it and all you have to do is weed through the dung piles to see who is tossing what dung, when you can do that you know what the animal is, you know who the guy is throwing it and the one who took the dump. And that my friend is how logic works, you get down in the sh$t and you figure it out. Try it some time, the SS propaganda gets tired.

[Boru]

To use your own words: that is horse crap.

The later new pieces were realized - the better and more perfect their way of manufacture. That´s a fact.

YOU,Mr Bean,are a prize ASS and a Nastee
Boru.

[Dmv]

YOU,Mr Bean,are a prize ASS and a Nastee
Boru.

You can disagree with his statements, no problem so do I, but what do YOU contribute to this site except for a line like above?

[Seiler]

You can disagree with his statements, no problem so do I, but what do YOU contribute to this site except for a line like above?

Zilch.

[Boru]

Zilch.

Not a lot!
I just like prodding the SOB.Bites a lot.
Boru.(King of Ireland)

[Thorsten B.]

Not based on the photos of these pieces here obviously, does not take a brain surgeon to see that. The story is well known, the answers in many cases obscured or hidden, but the pieces tell the story and in the case of these candle holders its quality control and cost cutting and there is no way around that, its obvious or it should be.

So crap of all kinds is tossed by some and caught by others, catch it and all you have to do is weed through the dung piles to see who is tossing what dung, when you can do that you know what the animal is, you know who the guy is throwing it and the one who took the dump. And that my friend is how logic works, you get down in the sh$t and you figure it out. Try it some time, the SS propaganda gets tired.

The last figurines of Allach that were realized by Richard Förster are of highest possible quality - his romanian peasant couples are way more detailed in every way than his earlier series of peasant couples - check it out.

And even THE Allach mass product, the Julleuchter, in it´s last version in late 1944 is as detailed and skillful as always - the used material and colour is even more beautiful than earlier versions.

[J. Wraith]

The last figurines of Allach that were realized by Richard Förster are of highest possible quality - his romanian peasant couples are way more detailed in every way than his earlier series of peasant couples - check it out.

And even THE Allach mass product, the Julleuchter, in it´s last version in late 1944 is as detailed and skillful as always - the used material and colour is even more beautiful than earlier versions.

Thorsten,

The later Julleuchter is not comparable to the early examples and never have been. The commercial pieces is where you see differences in most cases over time. Their still nice but there are differences. Presentation pieces are the company's main concern and the quality is remarkable. But this topic started with candle holders and the focus of my comments were about candle holders, so no need to defend presentation pieces as its not what were talking about.

[Capt. R]

another 89

there is another 89 on ebay now so I asked the seller for a photo of the marks which she provided. Looks the same as mine with the oblong circle under the base and the deeply etched Diebitsch signature.

Posting the photo for future reference...