Diebitsch #89 Allach candleholder - good one?

[ErichS]

my pair

[GEROME]

hello
this subject interests me
I am currently looking for this type of candle holders and candlesticks I can acquire one as the left but I want one with more details
then copy or manufacturing variant, also there you copy it in there?

[Dmv]

I had the same experience on a fair recently: I saw a #89 candleholder, picked it up and it was very light! Almost shocking since I was used tomy own #89 which is much heavier.
I also noted the lack of detail and other points mentioned earlier by Capt. R.
So I guess there were two molds? Or is the lighter one later (war time) production?
Very interesting these two variations.

[Capt. R]

A German collector contacted me and stated that the #89 in question is 100% original and the differences are attributed to multiple castings in the same mold and possible buildup of glaze to dull the detail.

I guess the only question I would have has to do with the weight. Why are some lighter than others? Solid vs. Hollow construction perhaps?

[Bob Hritz]

If there is a superior type and an inferior type, I would opt for the superior type.

Bob Hritz

[Michael73]

After reading this and having rare brown #89 in my collection, I must say that I would be careful with this 2nd type
The most bothering for me are the direction of the legs in relation to the signature and the the depth of the signature itself....

[Thorsten B.]

A German collector contacted me and stated that the #89 in question is 100% original and the differences are attributed to multiple castings in the same mold and possible buildup of glaze to dull the detail.

That is absolutely correct.

I guess the only question I would have has to do with the weight. Why are some lighter than others? Solid vs. Hollow construction perhaps?

The porcelain experts at Allach were always keen on continuing and developing their own skills and therefore the process of perfection. When a new model was introduced it could happen that - due to new technology and methods - it was not just left as it initially was made but they tried to make it more perfect, they modernized it.

One example of modernization is the Allach Nr. 42, the SS-Fahnenträger: Due to the introduction of the M 36 SS-Dienstdolch the dagger of the figurine was finally changed as well.

Another example of development of perfection is the Allach Nr. 66, the removable Luftwaffe-Degen of the Flieger-Offizier.

In this case of the weight of the Allach Nr. 89 Diebitsch Geburtsleuchter it seems to me that either the production method was modernized - means less mass of porcelain was needed to produce it.

That is the only logic explanation for me. Another possibility would be that the mass of porcelain in general would be another mixture, another kind.
But then many Allach pieces could be divided into one earlier and heavier version and a later version.
That is not the case.

[ErichS]

The pair that I have have two different Allach maker marks. One early one late possibly?

[Seiler]

The porcelain experts at Allach were always keen on continuing and developing their own skills and therefore the process of perfection. When a new model was introduced it could happen that - due to new technology and methods - it was not just left as it initially was made but they tried to make it more perfect, they modernized it.

One example of modernization is the Allach Nr. 42, the SS-Fahnenträger: Due to the introduction of the M 36 SS-Dienstdolch the dagger of the figurine was finally changed as well.

Another example of development of perfection is the Allach Nr. 66, the removable Luftwaffe-Degen of the Flieger-Offizier.

In this case of the weight of the Allach Nr. 89 Diebitsch Geburtsleuchter it seems to me that either the production method was modernized - means less mass of porcelain was needed to produce it.

That is the only logic explanation for me. Another possibility would be that the mass of porcelain in general would be another mixture, another kind.
But then many Allach pieces could be divided into one earlier and heavier version and a later version.
That is not the case.

Sheer inventionHe knows no more than anybody.

[Michael Fay]

Sheer inventionHe knows no more than anybody.

you noticed.

[Thorsten B.]

The pair that I have have two different Allach maker marks. One early one late possibly?

Bingo!

[Seiler]

you noticed.

Yes.
Once a Bull****ter,Always so.In this case a proven fact.
Seiler.

[Dmv]

Please stick to subject guys.

A German collector contacted me and stated that the #89 in question is 100% original and the differences are attributed to multiple castings in the same mold and possible buildup of glaze to dull the detail.

I get the theory, but don't think that's the case for a few reasons: the name Diebitsch is actually sharper and deeper on the lighter (and assumed later) version. If the lack of detail was due to buildup in the mold the signature would also have less detail, but instead it has more. Also the markings are turned, the wirdt of the feet and the squares on which they stand.
That in combination with the huge weight difference, I think there had to be a second mold.
Perhaps because the first one was broken or perhaps there were two for production or production modernisation?...

[Thorsten B.]

Yes, you are right.

The 89er Diebitsch candleholder was and is a popular one means Allach produced and sold quite a number of this model - therefore surely more than just one initial mold had to be created by the artist.

If one mold was good enough for producing let´s say about 70-80 pieces out of it - then with increasing number of presented/sold pieces more and more molds were needed to continue the production, of course.

[Dmv]

Capt.R or someone that has both versions:
Can you weight them and post the weight difference?