Original SS Ring?

[Thorsten B.]

Everybody who is at least a tiny bit interested in arts in modern history will realize pretty fast that there is one big cut worldwide and especially in Germany - or what remained as such:

1945.

That year changed a lot worldwide and had a vast impact on almost every part of modern development including creation of objects of arts and jewelry was no exception.

So it does not matter what was done in 1951 in jeweler´s business but what was done until the end of the Reich - since after 1945 there occured partially radical changes about attitude to work and changing of design and production methods.

Just look at an official state building from 1942 and one from 1951!


What I expect from an intelligent seller is not common sense of what is possible today but what was possible AND officially ideologically prefered in the period of which we are talking here - if you want to judge a piece good or bad it needs feeling and understanding of the piece in question based on a feeling of the time in which it was produced - or better: manufactured.

And, of course all that complemented by taking documents of the period into account - one needs to study the object and subject.

Dealers often don´t pay attention to that because time is money they think - that is short-term thinking and does not pay off.

[Craig Gottlieb]

You're right, Thorsten. You and I both have that sense of comparative history, and it's good that this particular individual comes from a long line of casters. He learned his trade from his father, who was practicing it in Europe during the 1930s. To me, he's the best guy I've found out of all of the jeweler experts, who has been able to shed light on TK ring production techniques. What really did it for him was the Brumm ring. Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I do respect yours. Mr. Standard should however learn that until he actually begins to study rings in person, that not all opinions are created equal

[sgstandard]

Advantage?

Still............................................. ..not one single explanation as to WHY they would be lost-wax cast, over other methods. I'm not locked religiously to my theory - it's just that the lost-wax theory doesn't make sense. When you can convince me that there were advantages, I may be inclined to agree with you. But it's just the opposite. Mass producing ANYTHING with lost-wax is extremely time consuming. That is a big DISadvantage. What are the advantages? Give me just one.

[Robert H]

a wax joke

[PAB_Collector]

I can't seriously belive you, as an experianced collector and dealer, would consider this letter in anyway pertinent concerning the manufacture of Third Reich period SS Honor rings.

What we gather from this letter is an opinion regarding the manufacture of dental hardware, post war, that's all. To draw any other conclusions is complete hyperbole.

As a potential buyer of an HR, I want something a hell of alot more relevant to the construction methods of the rings, before switching beliefs from the established and accepted method.

[tanker]

Craig
I say it again. You are gathering info only to help support your theory! It all boils down to your business, book sales, ring sales and ego booster. You are not advancing the ring hobby at all. You are slowly eroding any chance of the hobby becoming what it was for young collectors starting out.
The only thing positive coming out of this fiasco is that collectors wanting an original will go to the track proven dealers and stay clear of rings/dealers with controversy surrounding them. Us collectors that have original rings will continue to be a small close nit group that will strive to keep the integrity in the collecting of them. Ron

[Gaspare]

aw come on,that letter is a joke,,or as Rob posts, a 'wax joke'..

I interviewed a family member who is still in business in Germany and his families firm was right in Berlin during the war. They made many a high end award and plenty of rings etc. He states all the mass produced pieces were either die cast or die pressed.
I've also interviewed 2 period retailers that worked in Germany during the war. They state the same,,mass produced rings were not investment cast..

Anyone that takes the time to view all 3 of the processes will see investment cast wasn't the way..

Lastly,,what are the master and working ring dies people own? Figments of imaginations?
I own period tooling and its got nothing to do with investment cast.

If the investment cast guys were shown period tooling they would have a completely different opinion...

[Robert H]

I cannot believe this discussion is still going on, it is not anymore about facts it about who has more energy to write on this matter. This matter is crystal clear for the truth and there is no way around it.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Yes, you're right, Robert, it's crystal clear. The problem is that the few remaining believers in a "die struck" theory refuse to give letters like this ANY credence. By the way, Norman had this to say about his family history:

A branch of my family called “Pinter” went to America from Poland, to avoid the Nazi’s in the 1940’s who were Tailors, one of the sons started Lost wax casting in America, probably in the 1940s and as I explained my brother who played the Piano got a job on the “Queen Mary” cruise ship went to America in the early 1950s so the process and brought it back with him to England and started casting.

It seems, that he is very well informed about the process used during the period, having COME from Europe during the period, and having been in the family casting business that stretches back to before the war.

[Thorsten B.]

"The problem is that the few remaining believers in a "die struck" theory refuse to give letters like this ANY credence."


Actually the fact is that You are the only one who still believes in your theory and this fact is your problem - letters like this indeed give credence to that fact.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Um, no, that is not the case. I have contact with hundreds of collectors a week, and one of the most common comments, from those that read the forums, is concerning this. I don't care if I'm the ONLY person in the world who believes rings were investment cast (I'm not), I still stand by that belief, absent evidence to the contrary. The fact is, however, that I'm not in the minority (well, I'm in the minority in a small group of about 10 people on forums who are strangely religious in their belief in die-striking as the method. I've given metallurgical, historical, testimonial, evidence in support of my theory, and it's quite a strong case.

I don't mind, and do not choose to insult people, that don't see my way of thinking. You are entitled to your opinion, and we should all, rather than insult those who disagree with us, try to get along.

[Seiler]

Cut ALL the BS.
Do proper structural microscopic analysis.
This will prove absolutely whether a cast or wrought structure.
Put your money where your mouth is,donate a ring.

Seiler

[Robert H]

Craig, you are on the wrong boat with the wax theory. This letter is worthless as the facts are counting and not nothing else, anyone can write anything.

[Thorsten B.]

And I did not insult anybody.

[UDO]