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**John Pen.** · 12-31-2010, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by matovsky View Post

As a lawyer practicing in California, I do not know what the law is in Norway on the subject. I can only say that in the US, when the contract is based on the originality of the item in question, the statute of limitations begins to run not from the time of sale, but from the time of discovery that the item is not original. In other words, the buyer even after 19 years, if he discovers that the insignia is bad, would have the right to sue for breach of contract and rescission of that contract, and a refund of his money, based on the misrepresentation of originality, whether intentional or negligent. Whether he prevails is up to the judge or jury, which could certainly consider such a delay in rendering a verdict.
Sorry Bob, the sale is not always "final".
Gary.

Good luck proving in California court that the insignia currently on tunic is the same as was on it at time of sale. Unless you have some "iron clad" photographic proof, that would be impossible and you would not win this if it went to court. This is from a non-lawyer, but just common sense.
Well......you never know, California did let O.J. go after he murdered two people.
Jp

P.s. I do agree, in some situations, this would not be an issue, and therefore, in California, a sale could not be considered "final" under the law.

**Jon Fish** · 12-31-2010, 02:11 PM

Simple- as long as is agreed as part of the sale terms set by the buyer, and agreed by the purchaser.

**Johnny R** · 12-31-2010, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by VonBond View Post

My first one only lasted 5 years, before I sent her back

You not get your money refunded did you? If you did please forward the contact info for your divorce attorney.

**Bond** · 12-31-2010, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Johnny R View Post

You not get your money refunded did you? If you did please forward the contact info for your divorce attorney.

No, the warranty had expired

**John Pen.** · 12-31-2010, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by VonBond View Post

No, the warranty had expired

VonBond,
Where do you live? I want to move there.

.....I'm just kidding, I really love my wife. Besides she's got lot's of tread left on her, warranty not currently an issue... and she even has original insignia!

Jp

**Johnny R** · 12-31-2010, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by VonBond View Post

No, the warranty had expired

Yes, that happens, I signed a pre-nup this time. Piece of mind and less chance of me going to prison if the collection were sold to buy really important things like shoes and make-up.

**-Ray-** · 12-31-2010, 03:01 PM

Who knows if this collector would even act on his own moral principles if the circumstances reversed; most likely "_____!!!"

I currently have an item from the big dealer in Germany from about almost 5 years ago that I now believe is not right.
I myself would'nt have the gall to do so now or after 19 years to request a refund.

Think about it,,,19 years is a long damn time. Someone's hitti'n the crack pipe hard!!!

**Johnny R** · 12-31-2010, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by CIB View Post

Who knows if this collector would even act on his own moral principles if the circumstances reversed; most likely "_____!!!"

I currently have an item from the big dealer in Germany from about almost 5 years ago that I now believe is not right.
I myself would'nt have the gall to do so now or after 19 years to request a refund.

Think about it,,,19 years is a long damn time. Someone's hitti'n the crack pipe hard!!!

It does not hurt to ask, if they pay out time for a real big crack party. I think it depends on the culture. I know in the US people would laugh if someone tried this with a repaired antique piece of furniture etc. without an agreement lifetime return etc.

20 years ago a tunic like that would be what? Maybe tops 1500 USD? It is an Army HBT or?

**Jeff V** · 12-31-2010, 03:40 PM

I think I would return the money. The tunic even stripped, if original, has to be worth far more now than you were paid 19 years ago.
best wishes,
jeff

**me6_130** · 12-31-2010, 03:48 PM

Hello, just my thought,

I think you haven't got any legal responsability after a reasonable inspection time ( 1 month, 3 month, I don't know) if you haven't given a lifetime warranty. Anyhow you do feel you have a moral responsability, if not you wouldn't have posted your question. Well, from my point of view, if you take the jacket and pay back (shipping and other excluded), you will be seen as a gentleman, and you might even make some bussines when you sell that jacket again (but try to make sure insignia is the same one). It's up to you, so ask your pillow tonight ( if you don't go to sleep too late).

Happy New Year,

Carles

**N.C. Wyeth** · 12-31-2010, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by matovsky View Post

As a lawyer practicing in California, I do not know what the law is in Norway on the subject. I can only say that in the US, when the contract is based on the originality of the item in question, the statute of limitations begins to run not from the time of sale, but from the time of discovery that the item is not original. In other words, the buyer even after 19 years, if he discovers that the insignia is bad, would have the right to sue for breach of contract and rescission of that contract, and a refund of his money, based on the misrepresentation of originality, whether intentional or negligent. Whether he prevails is up to the judge or jury, which could certainly consider such a delay in rendering a verdict.
Sorry Bob, the sale is not always "final".
Gary.

Now this is a good point for all collectors/sellers to consider . . . and to my knowledge, is never really discussed openly here on WAF (yes/no?). This concept of lawsuit is a genuine possibility in the US - and it could happen! Fortunately for most everyone, the question a potential "claimant" must ask themselves (at least in the US), is how much it will cost to pursue a claim/case (both in $ and time), and what will be gained by doing so . . . and often, most realize it's not worth the effort - only to walk away pissed, and chalk the situation up to "experience". If someone can be sued in the US for selling coffee that is too hot to be spilled on a customer, you had better bet someone else can be sued for selling an item that does not truly live up to what it was origanally sold to represent!

Of course, we must consider that such a situation is reliant on a Contract being generated (and signed by BOTH parties?) . . . and how many of us have ever seen one of these?

Maybe we should all start asking for such a Contract to be generated for each sale . . . maybe even a new pre-requisite for selling here on WAF?

Bob - I commend you . . . giving a refund after so many years, you must have really cared about that person, and the relationship you developed - in today's age, there are way too many cut-throats out there that would have turned backside, and kept on walking! Maybe that is a little bit of what we all still call "Old-School" today? Kudos to you!

**Scott A. Hess** · 12-31-2010, 04:29 PM

So the general consensus seems to be "buyer beware", which I assume would render a "lifetime guarantee" useless? I returned an SS cuftitle after 3-4 years after I discovered it was bad, the seller was not enthused about the return. but then, when he sold it, he "guaranteed" it was 100 percent original ( a dealer)...so why should I (or anyone) be stuck with something from a 'reputable' dealer which he warrants at the time of sale to be original...? The seller didnt say "well I think its real..I could be wrong..and if you find out down the road its fake, you dont get your money back"...as in that scenario, his chances of making the sale would be diminished, and I would probably have greater luck throwing darts at a board and hitting the real one. The seller is by the very nature of the inducement "it is 100 percent original" implying that you need not worry..and that then is the inducement for the trust and the subsequent sale...

Does the sellers warranty thus like disappearing ink diminish over the course of time, and what he once sold as 100 percent original, since years have passed, should be dismissed? In my opinion, if you sell something as REAL then you warrant that it is so, ESPECIALLY and even more so if you hold yourself out to the community here as one with superior knowledgeable, and you are paying a premium for that so called knowledge...granted..I've learned my lesson in this hobby and realize that you had better know what you are buying better than the person selling it..however, I still believe there is something inherently wrong with a seller being able to say "well, I thought it was real..I tried guess I was wrong.." in the end, the seller had the value/use of the REAL money, which the owner of the piece does not. So, the buyer takes all the risk, the seller walks with the money which was real...and who is worse for the wear?

**N.C. Wyeth** · 12-31-2010, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Scott A. Hess View Post

In my opinion, if you sell something as REAL then you warrant that it is so, ESPECIALLY and even more so if you hold yourself out to the community here as one with superior knowledgeable, and you are paying a premium for that so called knowledge...granted

That would be called INTEGRITY . . .

So how many people do you know that REALLY/TRULY have such a rare trait?

**Scott A. Hess** · 12-31-2010, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by N.C. Wyeth View Post

That would be called INTEGRITY . . .

So how many people do you know that REALLY/TRULY have such a rare trait?

I do know a few, and it is with those people that I will part with my money, however, if I don't know MYSELF and believe the piece to be good, I walk away, I just dont take the chance anymore, and educate myself before I buy..its why I only buy a small fraction of what I see..and only collect a smaller fraction of what is out there. I have met some people who I find possess both honesty and integrity...in the end..you have to educate yourself.
My comments are most directed at the myriad of dealers (and individuals) who do upfront offer and exclaim "based upon my knowledge ..fill in the blank years of collecting/collection" I guarantee this item is 100 percent original" you see this everywhere, it either means something, or nothing..in many cases, it means very little, but still if your going to throw it out there and sell to ME..I will hold a person to it. On the flip side, if a person tells me "I dont really know, could be good, could be bad you decide" then its my call, and I have no one but myself to look to if I make a poor decision. Ive NEVER met someone who told me the latter, which is why they always say the former, and should be held accountable.....

**Dennis S** · 12-31-2010, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by John Pen. View Post

Good luck proving in California court that the insignia currently on tunic is the same as was on it at time of sale. Unless you have some "iron clad" photographic proof, that would be impossible and you would not win this if it went to court. This is from a non-lawyer, but just common sense.
Well......you never know, California did let O.J. go after he murdered two people.
Jp

P.s. I do agree, in some situations, this would not be an issue, and therefore, in California, a sale could not be considered "final" under the law.

There is proof by his own admission on the forum.

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