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**Gaspare** · 09-29-2010, 05:13 PM

Craig,,why would you tell him other researchers say the ring was die struck?! It misleads right from the start...Plant that, say it isn't mass produced and you got his opinion.. Tell him Die Cast,,tell him 1000s where made.. Tell him how can it be collectors own original metal master dies,,where did they come from?

There was a German publication during the 3rd reich. It dealt with different types manufacturing.. These magazines show a variety of ways badges, medals, pieces of jewelry, buttons etc. were made. A archive in Jablonec owns almost a full set. I've had them researched for different reasons and found that investment casting was not the predominant method used for mass production back then.. What I have found is that any but was used. Die casting , Die press , Roll formed/cut was the predominant method, any of those 3 were simpler and faster than investment cast.. Craig you can show as many letters as you want.. I own original tooling for rings,,they are not pieces from investment cast,,I've researched this for over 10 years,,investment cast wasn't used for private purchase ring.. And, as much as you don't like to admit,,the HR was a mass produced piece,,,1000s being made........

**sgstandard** · 09-29-2010, 05:47 PM

Rings

Gaspare - You couldn't possibly be correct, because Mr. Gottlieb presented a letter from the renowned Cranston Casting Company, and signed by none other than the illustrious Alfred W. Schoeninger himself, stating that TK Rings were lost-wax cast. Unfortunately, Mr. Schoeninger must have inhaled too many wax fumes, as his assertions are simply untrue. He stated that wax casting was the predominate method for making silver jewelry in Germany at that time. OH - I GET IT - YOU MEAN LIKE THE THOUSANDS OF PRIVATE PURCHASE SKULL RINGS THAT WERE ALL DIE-STRUCK? You mean those? He also proclaims that the quality indicates they were wax cast. WRONG AGAIN, ***LY. Die-struck rings exhibit better detail any day than cast items. That's why many class rings today are still die-struck. If you doubt me, contact Blackman jewelers in newport beach. The elder Mr. Blackman is an old-school master engraver. His son told me about the class rings, and adamantly agrees that die-struck jewelry NOT ONLY offers superior detail, but WAS, indeed, the predominate method used at that time.

**sgstandard** · 09-29-2010, 05:50 PM

Rings

To clarify - ***LY was "macFly" without the "a". Nothing bad.

**Craig Gottlieb** · 10-01-2010, 05:58 AM

Don Boyle was approached in neutrality at the MAX yesterday, and offered the boxes (and ring), privately or publically, so he could tell us why the box and ring were bad. He changed his mind on helping us all understand why he panned an obviously original set when trying to buy them.

**Thorsten B.** · 10-01-2010, 09:31 AM

I have problems with the English you have written.

So if I get your point you want to express that Don told you (or another neutral collector - or collectors who were at his stand at that time at the MAX?!) why and that he made a mistake by telling the offerer that something was wrong with the set although it was perfectly original when trying to buy that set, right?

"...privately or publically (sic!)..." - as it can be only one or the other: was it privately or publicly??

Please clarify your statement.

**sgstandard** · 10-01-2010, 02:34 PM

Rings

IDEA: The best way to help settle a credibility dispute between two warring factions such as Mr. Gottlieb and Mr. Boyle, would be to let their individual records stand on their own. Both have sold totenkopfrings. QUESTION: How many TK rings sold by Mr. Gottlieb have received negative or contentious feedback on this or other forums? QUESTION: How many TK rings sold by Mr. Boyle have received negative or contentious feedback on this or other forums? Let's find out: RULES: 1. Contestants receive 1 point for every favorable TK Ring assessment received from forum members on a specific ring they sold. The ring must be named. 2. Contestants LOSE 1 point for every UN-favorable TK Ring assessment received from forum members on a specific ring they sold. The ring must be named. 3. Contestants receive an EXTRA point when the favorible assessment comes from someone who actually PURCHASED a TK ring from them. 4. The contestant LOSES an extra point if the purchaser is unhappy. 5. Photos are welcomed unless prohibited for some reason. I'll get the ball rolling.........I bought a totenkopfring from Mr. Boyle over 20 years ago. I still own it and am very happy with my purchase, although I feel $1500 outrageous. SCORE: Mr. Boyle 2 - Mr. Gottlieb 0

**sgstandard** · 10-01-2010, 02:53 PM

Rings

"Koehl" 21.12.44

**juoneen** · 10-01-2010, 03:45 PM

So you possibly played dirty, and he didn't fall for it...? Could you or your man reporting to you as the "Ring reichsfuhrer SS"wihch ever is the case (and don being the Roehm) have had a hidden recording device also to document the sting ?? I wonder?

Whats this neutrality thing you speak of ? Or possibly....you mean neutrality on your part? Why does anyone have a need to be neutral with Don Boyle??

I think Dons always neutral, i just sense it strongly someone may be out to get him , like someone who hacks into foreign governments computers or anyone elses , when they feel the need to snoop or crash their computer ,at their own disgression or pleasure ,and then sneak off into the abyss undetected with cloaked identity like a black opt, and not fight fairly .
Mr Boyles reputation IMO ,is flawless ,he fights fairly, and he has no history of agendas, and is in no way sneaky or underhanded I've ever seen ,or heard of , but is above board and to the contrary, and to suggest otherwise does him a great disservice.

I met him in Monroeville decades ago, and he is still the same as he always was , as his authorship hasn't changed his character one bit to me.

Why would he pann anything....., and why are you at odds with him? Because he told you something in honesty you didn't agree with on this ring?? Would he lie to a seller Just for profit?, and risk his own good reputation for so many decades just for a few measely dollars like some ...would possibly have fallen for in such a ruse ? Could he has inadvertently made a mistake as all humans do?? I give him the benefit of the doubt always, as sometimes we all can make a mistake, ...cant we, ...BUT... is it deliberate ,if it even was a mistake??(I am in no way suggesting he made a mistake in this case..just to clarify)

I wouldn't tell anybody but a close friend either, as no matter what he says when put on the spot like that, someone will twist it...so...nope i'd say he dodged the bullet again.

I think he's way too smart to be set up , as you can't set up an honest guy, so ....I don't think I like how you play the game ,as...an honest opinion is always honest and doesn't need explained when someone is out to get that person ........you either trust him or you don't, so you are entitled to your own opinion, BUT ..i'd like to see the proof on that accusation, as that comment seems like its out of his character , and just may be more disinformation , and sounds not only outrageous , but borders slander if it is not true....and until proven otherwise i'd say you're just digging a deeper hole that draws into question you're own reputation on the subject.

I'm sure he will not dignify to answer here as this thread quickly heads south . I also mean no disrespect, to you , but as long as I live in a free country we all have to think for ourselves, and with other information i know, and have chosen not to share here ,...my opinions are strictly my own, and im sticking to it .

**james m** · 10-01-2010, 04:11 PM

Henry Ford,the founder of Ford Motor Company and a person with a reputation for "Telling it like it is" had a saying I suspect Don Boyle is abiding by at this time:

Quote:
"Never Explain: Your friends don't require an explanation and your enemies won't believe you anyway."

IMO: The truth will eventually come out here and when it does there will be hell to pay for some parties.

Jim

**pbuchh7715** · 10-01-2010, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by juoneen View Post

So you possibly played dirty, and he didn't fall for it...? Could you or your man reporting to you as the "Ring reichsfuhrer SS"wihch ever is the case (and don being the Roehm) have had a hidden recording device also to document the sting ?? I wonder?

Whats this neutrality thing you speak of ? Or possibly....you mean neutrality on your part? Why does anyone have a need to be neutral with Don Boyle??

I think Dons always neutral, i just sense it strongly someone may be out to get him , like someone who hacks into foreign governments computers or anyone elses , when they feel the need to snoop or crash their computer ,at their own disgression or pleasure ,and then sneak off into the abyss undetected with cloaked identity like a black opt, and not fight fairly .
Mr Boyles reputation IMO ,is flawless ,he fights fairly, and he has no history of agendas, and is in no way sneaky or underhanded I've ever seen ,or heard of , but is above board and to the contrary, and to suggest otherwise does him a great disservice.

I met him in Monroeville decades ago, and he is still the same as he always was , as his authorship hasn't changed his character one bit to me.

Why would he pann anything....., and why are you at odds with him? Because he told you something in honesty you didn't agree with on this ring?? Would he lie to a seller Just for profit?, and risk his own good reputation for so many decades just for a few measely dollars like some ...would possibly have fallen for in such a ruse ? Could he has inadvertently made a mistake as all humans do?? I give him the benefit of the doubt always, as sometimes we all can make a mistake, ...cant we, ...BUT... is it deliberate ,if it even was a mistake??(I am in no way suggesting he made a mistake in this case..just to clarify)

I wouldn't tell anybody but a close friend either, as no matter what he says when put on the spot like that, someone will twist it...so...nope i'd say he dodged the bullet again.

I think he's way too smart to be set up , as you can't set up an honest guy, so ....I don't think I like how you play the game ,as...an honest opinion is always honest and doesn't need explained when someone is out to get that person ........you either trust him or you don't, so you are entitled to your own opinion, BUT ..i'd like to see the proof on that accusation, as that comment seems like its out of his character , and just may be more disinformation , and sounds not only outrageous , but borders slander if it is not true....and until proven otherwise i'd say you're just digging a deeper hole that draws into question you're own reputation on the subject.

I'm sure he will not dignify to answer here as this thread quickly heads south . I also mean no disrespect, to you , but as long as I live in a free country we all have to think for ourselves, and with other information i know, and have chosen not to share here ,...my opinions are strictly my own, and im sticking to it .

Really? Sigh......

**sgstandard** · 10-01-2010, 05:46 PM

Rings

Which means........................

**Gaspare** · 10-01-2010, 11:24 PM

Don is a mellow guy,,avoids confrontation when ever possible. Stays out of the limelight. He does the best he can and has for years had a excellent reputation.. Concerning HRs I've never known or heard of a problem concerning him before..
Knowing Don,, I'd say once he found out he was possibly set up from the very beginning he no longer wanted anything to do with Craig. He, and the other person there that also saw the ring/box say it is not the box sent to them that is shown here,,and I believe them.. By the way,he's not condemning the ring,,only the box which was sent to him..

I happen to like the box,,at least the one shown here. The ring I'm not so hot on,,there are other HRs I'm not so hot on either, but thats just me..

I think at this point from what some are saying are 'authentic rings' I wouldn't recommend to anyone, or should say a beginner, to even look at one of these supposed 'out of the woodwork' late pattern HRs.
Some have said a near or perfect copy can't be made.. I firmly believe they can make a near perfect HR nowadays.

With the newer fakes what you'll start [and already] to see is slight variations never before seen, example:
- engraving variations of similar type/year rings,, leaf variations,,slight rune variations etc. and other small things. These problems will be solved eventually.

There are guys with 10, 15, 20, authentic HRs in their collections they've had for many years.. I'd say get those rings,, * Get rings that match those guys rings in every little way..
Leave the bull**** variation HRs to those that are stuck with them, let the disinformation that has been said and published fail when scrutinized,,, and hopefully one day things will get back on track with the HR.. Until then, let the buyer beware...

**Gaspard** · 10-02-2010, 03:02 AM

Hi all,

I think that we should not forget the letter on page 4.
"(...) when i told him [Don Boyle] that i was sure that the box was real, he upped his offer on the so-called box reproduction (from 90) to a few hundred dollars."
I must respect all the work that Don Boyle did about THRs from the past to now, but even the most respected expert can do silly things. Don Boyle had the choice between integrity and money. He thought that he could steal a family and was caught. His new goal is to admit that now.

**Craig Gottlieb** · 10-02-2010, 06:19 AM

It seems that nobody else has forgotten that sentence either. We gave him an opportunity to redeem himself, and he declined. It's his own business. This will be my last post on the subject of Don Boyle in this thread. Mark my words, and thrown them in my face if I regress. I will start another thread when I return on TK ring boxes, and will offer a photographic analysis of the three striped boxes I assembled (haha, not with glue) here at the MAX.

**Gaspard** · 10-02-2010, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by Craig Gottlieb View Post

It seems that nobody else has forgotten that sentence either. We gave him an opportunity to redeem himself, and he declined. It's his own business. This will be my last post on the subject of Don Boyle in this thread. Mark my words, and thrown them in my face if I regress. I will start another thread when I return on TK ring boxes, and will offer a photographic analysis of the three striped boxes I assembled (haha, not with glue) here at the MAX.

Thanks for this future analysis.

I have nothing against Don Boyle but i just hope he will explain what happened. I have seen that he is able to post on another forum, why not to do this here ?
Do you think that he keeps some pictures of rings and boxes that he studied ? If he does so, it will be simple for him to compare the box that he received and the "good" one.

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