HR and box

[Thorsten B.]

I think that only the former worker of the Gahr company - from 1936 on while still being a student - Mister F.M. could give the doubtless answer.

Maybe he is still alive, who knows?

If not he might has left some written documents behind due to the fact that the authors Meyer/Schildt already asked him essential questions regarding the inner development of the Gahr company.

[sgstandard]

HR's

There may be a bit of confusion for some when the term "die cast" is used. The word "casting", to me, generally refers to "lost wax casting". Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mr. Gottlieb's belief is that they were "lost wax cast" with molten metal. "Die-cast" or "die-struck", to me means the metal is stamped, pressed, struck, or rolled by heavy machinery. I think a lot of collectors for years assumed that totenkopfrings were "lost wax cast" because that is the most common method used today for custom jewelry. The ONLY advantage of lost wax casting is that it's more practical for small production, compared to the cost and complexity of a die-striking setup. But once the die-struck setup is completed, many, many rings can literally be cranked out in a much shorter time. Bottom line: When Mr. Gottlieb can explain the advantages of lost wax casting a totenkopfring over the die-struck method, myself and others might believe him. But he can't, because there is no advantage. In fact, quite the opposite is true. Mr. Gottlieb: What are the advantages of your theory?

[Thorsten B.]

Craig - as well as others and even studied historians - makes an essential mistake:

By trying to find the honest answer regarding these matters and questions he looks onto all these historical circumstances with the eyes of a businessman and dealer from the world of today.

The world of today is galaxies away from the years of the Drittes Reich!

And to put cream on that cake:

Even in those ideology-loaded days a man like Himmler was often mentioned and judged by other important figures of the movement, party and even within the SS (!) as being galaxies away from them!

That should tell you something.

In other words:

If Gahr needed a die-press for producing one of the most essential symbols of Himmler´s SS - why should he pay for it by himself?

Himmler made it happen that - although Oswald Pohl mentioned already in 1939 that silver will be harder to receive - the Ehrenring was produced during nearly the whole wartime.

Do you think that Himmler would have had a problem paying a die-press and let it deliver to Gahr, old Hitler´s comrade?

I don´t think so - maybe even the Chef himself paid for it.

[Craig Gottlieb]

First, I recognize that the most vocal participants of this thread are those that view things differently than I do, and I'm okay with that. Sure, it makes viewers think that the world thinks differently than I do, but that's not the case. Also, I hesitate to ever use absolute terms when making my case, as I feel it weakens my argument. Besides, all we know we must induce from evidence - it's very rare to have certain knowledge in this field, apart from clear photographic documentation. And even then, there is always room for intepretation. Anyway, how you choose to define "mass produce" is subjective. I feel that they were bespoke (custom made), and we have the ordering process to back up that view. We also see micro-porosity in the surface of rings, which indicates molten silver at the time of manufacture. We have chemical composition in the form of flowing agents in the silver. We have known original rings with "errors" that can ONLY be explained if you subscribe to the investment casting theory - nobody will talk about the Brumm ring, which makes it obvious that a die-strike was NOT used to produce the ring. Am I repeating myself? Sure, because I have little to add at this point, other than to repeat all of the above stated, and re-stated evidence. Anyone who chooses to characterize my argument as weak, is obviously ignoring the evidence. Have I proven my case? No. Is my theory vaild? Of course it is. It has certainly gained traction with those who consider the entirety of my argument.

Regarding Gahr's decision to buy a press or not buy a press, and invest in dies, I can only tell you that I do not have access to their thought process. I can only look at the physical and testimonial evidence. However, I can offer this insight: when the Totenkopf Ring began life, it was a very small order for rings produced in 1933, to provide Christmas gifts for Himmler's friends. We know that very few 1933 rings were produced. At that point, it seems patently obvious that they were NOT mass produced. The 1930s saw an expansion of rings, but not as dramatic as one might expect. Certainly not on the level of uniform production, armament production, etc. By 1940, when the 2nd style ring was put into production, there were already severe material shortages in Germany, and most tooling was going toward production more crucial to the war effort. Certainly, companies like Steinhaur & Luck, who already had die-press operations in place, were already set up to produce as many Iron Crosses as the Nazi war machine could award. All of this to say: Gahr didn't start out producing rings using a die-press, rings were not originally a "large" project, and by the time it did become a larger project, Germany had other irons in the fire. And if your reply is to say, "Come on, for the SS, anything was possible." Well, we know that not to be true. Cloth shortages were so severe that Himmler would soon order black uniforms turned in to be used to remanufacture more essential war goods, so the SS was apparently NOT immune to war shortages. For support of my economic claims, read the excellent book by Göty Aly called Hitler's Beneficiary. It gives a very clear picture of the economic situation as the war unfolds, and answers a lot of questions that are surprisingly relevant to our hobby.

[sgstandard]

rings

The only financial disadvantage of the "die-struck" method would be the initial investment and maintenance. The man-hours and labor cost to lost-wax cast them individually, or even on "trees", would be more expensive in the long run. The lost-wax cast rings would also require too much detailing and handwork as well. Too time-consuming.

[sgstandard]

Rings

Mr. Gottlieb - You have failed to address the question - What is the advantage of lost-wax casting?

[sgstandard]

Rings

MICRO-POROSITY? You've got to be kidding. Even if a silver bar was bent to make a ring, that metal bar is formed from metal that was molten at one time. Do you think they just pull silver out of the ground and bend it?

[Craig Gottlieb]

Your sarcasm is refreshing. When silver is subjected to intense pressure of dies, micro-porosity is much less noticable. Microscopic evaluation of medals, coins, and other die-struck objects were compared, and the rings showed porosity consistent with having been molten when the silver took its final shape. The control measurements revealed that die-striking produces a much smoother surface.

The advantage of investment casting is obvious. The most important thing to remember is that Gahr was a casting company, and their entire labor force was therefore trained to use this methodology, and their equipment was also set up for this process. Second, it was how they made the first tiny batch of rings for Himmler's 1933 Christmas celebrations (see above argument). Third, as the argument above points out, there were other issues at play as the 30s turned into the 40s, and retooling costs increased dramatically.

Certainly, if we wanted to modernize production for the long term, it would have been more advantageous to spend a lot of money in start-up costs to produce thousands of rings a week that were as smooth as a coin in the recesses, and as consistant as a medal in design. But the physical evidence shows that for whatever reason, they chose not to do this. Of course, investment casting requires more hand finishing - exactly what we see on virtually ALL rings. We see signs of hand-finishing, which would hardly be necessary if they were die-struck. In fact, xray flourescence scanning showed trace elements of iron particles on areas that showed evidence of hand-finishing - particles that were imparted into the silver by the iron on the files used.

[Thorsten B.]

OK, I start here:

First - there is no Anti- or Pro-Gottlieb behaviour or party in existence within this thread.

There are different opinions based on experience and knowledge which includes that I give a rat´s a** about any scientific or pseudo-scientific method, may it - Second - be xray flourescence scanning or may it be anything else - to give doubtless evidence backing up an opinion regarding that matter whether it is pros or cons.

Why?

Because no matter who knows how to make use of something else other than experience and knowledge to back up his/her opinion also knows how to mis-use it - one way ot the other.

A long-term thinker - and actor - as Himmler (including his actions and projects) cannot be beaten by the argument that the Ehrenring when first introduced in 1933 was not a mass product.

Why?

Because Himmler had - as we all know from our collector´s experience - vaster plans with his SS.
That means that regarding to the Ehrenring and it´s numbers of receipients it was constructed - already right from the beginning of it´s realisation and production! - as a mass product.

Himmler was so sure about being able to realize in the near future his ambitions to let the SS grow very fast and let it become THE leading power within Hitler´s Third Reich that he already awarded the Ehrenring in 1933!

At a time where he was not even the official leader of the SS!

In fact he was not even really the Reichsführer-SS but is named - for example within the original leasing contract regarding Wewelsburg castle - as being Obergruppenführer Himmler which was still in 1934 historically and nominal the correct rank and title.

And in the Ehrenring it was written right from the beginning Himmler´s name, not Röhm´s name - like on the daggers.

Please take that in mind and into account.

The Ehrenring was for sure realized for being a mass product right from it´s introduction.

[Jon Fish]

fact, xray flourescence scanning showed trace elements of iron particles on areas that showed evidence of hand-finishing - particles that were imparted into the silver by the iron on the files used.

Now thats interesting Craig. Are there any images from that or is it to microscopic to photograph?

[Thorsten B.]

Certainly the SS was not immun to war shortages - who said so?

Nonetheless it is fact that the Ehrenring was produced awarded at least until the end of 1944.
And there is no reason nor evidence that the Gahr company stopped producing the Ehrenringe at that date due to the fact that other cultural efforts and production of cultural pieces like Allach porcelain kkept on moving on with production until the very last days - just some days before the GI´s entered the scene.

Not Himmler nor any economic situation - whether been published by Götz Aly or anybody else - stopped the production, it was stopped by the enemy in form of the infantry, the classical figure.

Without envading via infantry no hot war can be won, just another evidence for calling the infantry the queen of all weapons.
The airraids could not really harm war production - indeed it was in 1944 when the Reich´s economy produced the highest numbers of artillery, tanks, planes etc. - but the suitable man-power was not there and could not easily be replaced in time - that was it.

[Thorsten B.]

Not to forget:

Himmler himself climbed up to highest positions in 1944 as well - and sure the Germans had other irons in the fire but the whole development of the SS came to it´s climax in later 1944.

Yes, the Allgemeine (black) SS did certainly not - but that does not mean anything regarding produced numbers of Ehrenringe due to the fact that the more Waffen-SS recruits and officers moved in - and that was in 1944 and still in early 1945 the case - the higher was the demand for awarding rings to them again.

About 900.000 enlisted men in the Waffen-SS - how many of them did receive the Ehrenring for Winter solstice 1944?

And then how many were still made until let´s say March/early April 1945?

Did Götz Aly put an eye on that as well?

[sgstandard]

Rings

"Your sarcasm is refreshing"........I don't know why that sounded so funny, but it did! Agree - This is not the "World vs. Mr. Gottlieb", but other than the fact that Gahr was a "casting" company, you haven't told us what the actual advantages of "lost wax casting" are. "Die-striking" saves time and effort with high-quality results. Investment casting.............?????????? Does what?

[Craig Gottlieb]

I would actually like to get some microscopic photos for the second volume of my book, but I am not currently set up for it. But it's a great suggestion, one that I will definitely incorporate.

Regarding Himmler, it is debatable whether or not in 1933, he had plans to formalize the ring into an official SS award. It is not until 1936, if memory serves correctly, that any regulations of consequence were set down that essentially formalized the ring into an award. So I tend to disbelieve the notion that Himmler planned on awarding 1,000,000 rings, and called up Gahr to start preparing for such a huge order by retraining their staff and buying all sorts of new equipment. Furthermore, it is well known that as early as 1936-1937, that officers were having trouble sourcing chained SS daggers. By 1939, when the war began in earnest for the Germans, non-crucial war resources did become quite scarce. General Pohl even had trouble sourcing silver for rings and sword hilts (a fact documented in a letter he wrote), and there was constant squabbling over where the gold and other valuables looted from the Jews was to go (the SS had to turn it into the Reichsbank so it could transfer the wealth to Switzerland where it eventually paid for scarce natural resources the Reich didn't have).

Debating history is fun, and nobody will derive an absolute answer. However, this discussion should illustrate that the "investment cast" argument is not as silly as the few vocal and most ardant critics of the theory might portray it to be. There is plenty of evidence coming out to support it, and just a few "shocked claims" by adherents to Don Boyle's "die-struck" theory that really haven't put up much in the way of impressive evidence. Most of the "evidence" provided to support the "die-struck" theory usually begins with, "Well, Don Boyle says so" and "You'd be crazy to think otherwise." I do keep an open mind, however.

Anyway, I have to prepare for MAX, so I leave you all to the discussion until my return. If you're at MAX, please stop by my table and I'll be glad to show you the 3 striped TK boxes, and hopefully Don can come by and educate us as to why he told the family that the Klohn box, which he tried to buy for $100, was a "poor quality reproduction."

[james m]

Now thats interesting Craig. Are there any images from that or is it to microscopic to photograph?

I have spent countless hours working metal with files in the course of gunsmithing projects and have yet to see a file lose any amount of metal. Most of my files are well over 50 years old and have never even been re-sharpened. And there use for the most part has been filing steel a metal we all know is much harder than silver. The tools used by the Gahr craftsmen to "clean up" TK rings would have been chasing tools which are also used to clean up engraving before rehardening NOT metal working files. What in the hell would someone file on a TK ring anyway!
The fact that TK rings were made in two parts and have a sizing seam supports the fact that they we made in dies. Neither would be necessary if they had been cast in rubber molds.
Craig You might want to see if there is a metals class offering in your area perhaps thru a local community college that you could take. Perhaps that would bring you to your senses.
Jim