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**Gaspare** · 09-28-2010, 11:04 PM

'assumptions'? That's funny .

Craig you seriously think Gahr didn't own a press? How big do you think you'd need one to make jewelry pieces?

You talk about time constraints,,investment cast process takes way longer than any of the 'die' proceedures

"They made about 1500 to 1600 a year," [italics/underline mine]

That's not massed produced??

Come on Craig!! They had no idea how many more would be made..
There are private purchase rings with runs of 2000 total that were used making a press and dies..
Die cast, Die pressed, Roll formed/cut,,,they all use ONE set of masters, ONE, nothing can be simpler than that. Some manufacturers had teams of die cutter people, They even cut dies for proposed rings!!

It would be great for us to just agree to disagree and leave it at that. But when make statements as fact, when you publish theories and want to make them accepted fact you get what is happening here,, a one sided debate, you against common sense, [joking]...
Whats not a joke is my next post -

**Gaspare** · 09-28-2010, 11:11 PM

This is an email sent to me from Don Boyle today. He ,as you read it has given permission to post it...

*One other thing. There is another member here who also is a classy and knowledgeable guy and doesn't want any further involvement.
He recently told me the day after the original post was made here one of the participants called him personally and said something to the affect:
- 'hey we're all ready, we're going to finally get Don, anyone needing a CoA won't be going to him anymore come on and post, you've had some problems with Don in the past and now is the time to get on board', the more the merrier'...
This man never in the past lied to me and I believe him 100%
anyway -

O.K., Dons letter nothing added, no edits:

Gaspare : Getting ready for the Max Show . Hope to see you there [I'm not going] and
what ever differences we had in the past or said is water over the dam
so to speak. Stop at my table just to talk. I was thinking about the
Klohn Ring and box that was sent to me and the truth of the matter is
the ring box I held in my hand and in front of two other collectors
Definitly is NOT the one that has been posted on several forums. These
two collectors have seen what has been posted and contacted me to let me know that is not the box that was shown to them or that I had sent to me with the ring. Please feel free to post this on any forum as in my
pofessional opinion this is the truth and I stand by it.
As for the manycollectors and dealers one in particular from California have beentrying to do over the years is destroy my reputation and have not beenable to as in the many years of dealing and collecting I have never had one Honor Ring or Box come back to me as being questonalble or bad the other dealers in question cannot say the same . My reputation stands on its own over the years an I am proud of it. As we all know certain
people have there own agenda and nothing like tryihg to defame or
slander a mans reputation as has been done to me on certain forums.
People have asked me to respond but I have more class then they ever
will and will not give them a forum or stage to help futher there agenda
because in my opinion it hurts the hobby.

**Craig Gottlieb** · 09-29-2010, 09:47 AM

That's really pathetic. Is that his only way out of this mess? After 2 months, on the eve of the MAX, where he has to face the music, he decides that "these weren't the objects he saw?"

**Jeff V** · 09-29-2010, 10:02 AM

Another reason why a COA that costs $250.00 should have some pictures of the item being evaluated along with the piece of paper. The way Don does it is a joke.
best wishes,
jeff

**Craig Gottlieb** · 09-29-2010, 10:04 AM

Jeff: It's not the first time Don has used this tactic to get out of a scrape. He recently evaluated the Waigl ring, which I had sold, and told the collector it wasn't the same ring he had written a COA on. Of course, the collector had the large format images of the ring, dated before Don certified it - same ring, of course. Anyway, back to the ring and box - both will be on display at the show, along with the 2nd striped box that is "Don Boyle Approved" and the third Teply box, if Larry brings it.

**Thorsten B.** · 09-29-2010, 11:02 AM

Interesting:

The Ehrenring has once been designed and introduced to spend an aura of credibility for both the giver and the recipient - and that´s exactly what any kind of character who is interested in them in the world of today is longing for as well.

Well, at least that´s one thing - maybe the only thing - all involved parties do have in common.

**sgstandard** · 09-29-2010, 12:36 PM

Rings

Mr. Gottlieb, there was a vicious rumor going around that you asked Don Boyle to change his assessment of a totenkopfring to help you. Is this true?

**Craig Gottlieb** · 09-29-2010, 01:01 PM

That is a very nice bait-and-switch. When you are losing an argument, attack the opponent. Again, you prove my point very well. No, it was not true. It is generally accepted now that Don allowed the facts to be manipulated, resulting in one email being taken entirely out of context, all on the eve of my book coming out. Same thing he may be trying to do here - trying to muddy the waters at a crucial moment to suit him. Don and I disagreed about the authenticity of a ring, and I told him that he could not say that the ring in question was not authentic, and I demanded that he say that it was good (because I thought he was wrong). In essence, I asked him via email and telephone in a heated argument, to have a second look. At the time, Kris Lindblom and company were on one of their "anti-Gottlieb hunts" and the rest is history.

Now, to refocus the discussion away from your ad hominem attack, and onto the subject - Don's apparent failure to recognize a good box and a perfect ring (while he was trying desperately to buy both), or the subject matter of casting versus die-striking), let me turn your attention to this letter - one of many in my growing list of bona fide experts who are coming down solidly on the side of investment casting. This is in addition to Peter Schemonski, a noted authority on jewelry making, and other sources that we are gathering from Germany. I've also begun research with a German researcher in Munich, to see if source documents can be found in some very creative locations which we believe may be the only place that Gahr documents may still exist undiscovered.

Attached Files

Cranston Castings Letter.jpg (87.8 KB, 212 views)

**tanker** · 09-29-2010, 01:18 PM

Graig
That is exactly what YOU have been doing to Don! I have been trying to keep up whith this issue. but with all the psot, it can be exhausting. The only person I see that has an issue is in integrity when it comes to rings is you. There have been alot of questions concerning the "mint, out of the workwork" rings you have purchased and then resold(?). I don't see any other people selling or authenicating rings having as much controversy around there actions as you.
Enough is enough! If I had to purchase a ring today, I certainly would not want your name attached to it.
I held off on posting this, but you are not doing the ring hobby any good.

You have your idea nd and others have theirs. Leave it at that . If you are selling and buying rings, fine. If other are then that is fine. STOP the petty bickering for the hobby's sake. Ron

**sgstandard** · 09-29-2010, 01:47 PM

Rings

That was no attack, just an attempt to understand everyone's motivations. As I said, it was a rumor. Your clarification is accepted.

**sgstandard** · 09-29-2010, 02:13 PM

Ring

I barely finished my last post where I foolishly was willing to give Mr. Gottlieb the benefit of the doubt, accepting his explanation. THEN, I read his response more closely, and realized I had been fooled. QUESTION: "Mr. Gottlieb, there was a vicious rumor going around that you asked Don Boyle to change his assessment of a totenkopfring to help you. Is this true?" ANSWER: "No, it was not true." Read further, and he says, ......"and I demanded that he say it was good." So Mr. Gottlieb didn't "ASK" - he "DEMANDED"!! GOT it!!

**Craig Gottlieb** · 09-29-2010, 03:13 PM

Sorry, but I'm out of here. I've got a MAX show to attend. You've successfully redirected the intelligent conversation that a few of us were still having, and replaced it with a bickering match. You're darned right I demanded it, because Don was wrong, and wrong for the wrong reasons - just like he was with this ring and box that started this thread. There was nothing unethical about my indignation - he made me angry, and on the heels of a bunch of other rumor-mongering that was going on, I'd had enough. You can ask all the questions you like about anything you like, but my credibility stands on it's own. I've owned more than 50 rings, all of which are on my website for everyone to see. And I NEVER EVER had a problem with any ring, or any reputation issue about a ring, until my book came out, and Don Boyle felt threatened by it. Don't you find that amusing? How many original rings have you owned, Sgstandard? What are your credentials?

**sgstandard** · 09-29-2010, 03:35 PM

Credentials

My credentials: I have a Masters degree in Metal Spectroscopy; a form of physics that studies and interprets interaction between radiation and matter.

**sgstandard** · 09-29-2010, 03:42 PM

Rings

How many original rings have I owned? Only one. It is a beautiful die-struck example that I purchased directly from Mr. Boyle many years ago. It came with his COA, but didn't have any casting flaws or hokey engraving.

**Gaspare** · 09-29-2010, 04:56 PM

One thing many do not realize... Don neither posts, nor watches /reads these forums. I don't think he's ever even see this site let alone post here. He is also very slow to check and answer emails.

He had been telling me since this started the ring is good but the box is not. There is another party that was there when Don received the ring/box.. He also swears the box sent to Don is not the box shown when 1st posted here nor the box Craig currently shows. He, and Don have no problem with the box being shown. Remember, it was Don that first authenticated the rope box Mr.Lipps owns! Almost every collector said there was no such thing. Craig, you don't remember that because at that time you barely knew what a Honor Ring was....
Craig find Don at the show and get his statement about the box,,,you 2 can also talk about the ring....

*sgstandard,,it is true, I've seen the emails between Don and Craig.
It is also true a member here called another member as soon as the 1st post was made showing the ring/box,,and asking the member to jump on board.. Dirty dealings from the start.

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