Question for Herr Lumsden!

[MartyC]

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[Stossgruppe3]

Mr Lumsden .......

If I might make a suggestion why do you not ask this very question on the German Daggers Forum as well, as there are a lot more U.S. SS collectors there who have purchased items directly from vets. They will be able to tell you the answers no doubt straight away, I do not mean this as a slur just widening your field of knowledge. David

[Dan T]

Tony: Of course the SS existed. Next thing you know, you'll be denying the existence of Dachau. I know they are real because Steven Speilberg made a movie or two about them!

Yep and in true Hollywood tradition, they were singlehandedly defeated by Uncle Sam.

[JOHN VD HEIJDEN]

re


dachau???? can,t seem to find that factory in mine list of RZM-code,s wich code did they have????

[CRAIGGOODWIN]

Anyone checked out Galien David's site

I quote : ATTENTION! MUCH OF THE CLOTH BELOW WAS PURCHASED DIRECTLY FROM THE SON OF A WWII VETERAN WHO ACQUIRED THESE AT DACHAU CONCENTRATION CAMP. HE WAS AN AUTOMOTIVE ADVISOR TO PATTONS THIRD ARMY. RARE OPPORTUNITY TO OWN SOME ABSOLUTELY ORIGINAL SS CLOTH INSIGNIA. YOU MAY SEE THESE CLOTH ITEMS OFFERED FOR LESS IN AUCTION AND ON OTHER SITES, BUT IS IT ORIGINAL??? THESE ARE VIRGIN ITEMS NEVER OFFERED TO THE PUBLIC BEFORE AND FROM AN IMPECCABLE SOURCE

They have been on sale there forever

maybe someone who is friendly with Galien can ask & see if we can speak to the impeccable source

[Tony Barto]

I quote : ATTENTION! MUCH OF THE CLOTH BELOW WAS PURCHASED DIRECTLY FROM THE SON OF A WWII VETERAN WHO ACQUIRED THESE AT DACHAU CONCENTRATION CAMP. HE WAS AN AUTOMOTIVE ADVISOR TO PATTONS THIRD ARMY. RARE OPPORTUNITY TO OWN SOME ABSOLUTELY ORIGINAL SS CLOTH INSIGNIA. YOU MAY SEE THESE CLOTH ITEMS OFFERED FOR LESS IN AUCTION AND ON OTHER SITES, BUT IS IT ORIGINAL??? THESE ARE VIRGIN ITEMS NEVER OFFERED TO THE PUBLIC BEFORE AND FROM AN IMPECCABLE SOURCE

They have been on sale there forever

maybe someone who is friendly with Galien can ask & see if we can speak to the impeccable source

It's actually about a year or two old now and the reason some is still available is because of his prices. Why aren't you asking the same question about Bill Shea's site? If it was priced reasonably (IMHO of course), it would've all been gone within the first week of him putting it up on his site. Why don't you go ahead and ask him yourself? NEXT.......

[Tony Barto]

If I might make a suggestion why do you not ask this very question on the German Daggers Forum as well, as there are a lot more U.S. SS collectors there who have purchased items directly from vets. They will be able to tell you the answers no doubt straight away, I do not mean this as a slur just widening your field of knowledge. David

I think that is a wonderful idea.

[Eric Queen]

I am jumping into this late, but will add my 0.02 cents. I was with my Father in 1980 when he bought over 250 pieces of SS cloth from a US vet living in Paradise, CA ( we were living in Biggs at the time ). There were several SA tabs in the lot, as well as about 15 sleevebands, 3 green SS fezes, 6 SS fezes, and 3 M43 panzer caps ( with the cardboard bills ). The man, the vet, collected prisms, and used this stuff to wrap the prisms so they wouldn't break when he brought them home. The stuff was out in a little trailor next to his house. True story. Regardless of what anyone thinks or says, I was there.

EQ

[Gary Wood]

You know some of us do not need to ask about the impeccable source, or bring the vet forward to believe, opinions regardless of where the items have come from are based on comparisons of known originals and techniques used to produce them you might say its only our opinion but it is an opinion shared by many.

Now for all you disbelieves these are what some of the problems are out there even with all the information in reference books (but choose wisely here) and the Internet and collector who specialise and research;

some people just cannot tell no matter how many pieces they look at and conflicting theorys presented to them*,

some people are just too lazy and want everyone else to do the work for them and just repeat what they hear

some people are quick to make judgement having only handled/owned a few items and the scenario "its not like mine so must be a fake creeps in, this is then passed on to friends who pass it on to friends ect ect next thing you know its a fact, all be it facts based on one individuals opinion who knew very little to start with.

Then you get theory's like this one! Based on no facts whatsoever, just some guys opinion no facts or research has been presented to support his theory, in fact he wants others to convince him that what he is not saying is true!

Early on in the thread it was stated as collectors hearsay, pictures of items bought were presented, then it was what about pictures of the vet, then pictures of the vet with the items wartime, then john relayed Bob Hritz's story then it was "now we are getting somewhere" well surely in his eyes and the flawed logic he is using that is just hearsay.

It was said that these lines only appear on the dachau items and fakes, then it was asked / suggested that this could be a trait of post-war embroidery, based on what? most post war fake collar insignia do not have this line at all you know like the pre dachau type so does than make them real, the delta fakes are a copy, what they copied of course were the dachau tabs, there the similarities end.

It was also mentioned that machine woven insignia has also a cutting line and while this is not the same as embroidered items it does show that this practice was in place in the badge manufacturing industry.

I also presented one runic which is a wartime runic with RZM label with the line on the back post # 40 so the line does not just appear on the dachau type tabs but of course he never mentioned the runic I have posted, so Robin is the runic real or fake in your eyes or can you not tell?

I also remember in one of your books another theory of yours where you stated that the tropical helmet with metal ss decals on them were post 1945 so the pictures of the ss troops wearing them wartime are what??????? or was it a case that you had not seen these pictures so if you have not seen them in wear they must be fake! somewhat like this theory really.

If you want evidence you do the work yourself and present solid proof that your theory is correct other wise what your are saying is just tripe!
cheers,
Gary

* like this one

[Gary Wood]

question for robin is this a real patch?

[Robin Lumsden]

A number of points have been made since I last logged on, so I'll try to repond to them all in turn.

Marty C.
That the sort of thing I'm after - something which can verify these stories.

David.
I don't have time to post all this on the GDC forum as well. I presume many GDC members also log on here.

Craiggoodwin.
Good point. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Eric.
Were there any TABS among this lot? That would be interesting to know.

Perry.
I may be many things, but I'm NOT unreasonable. What I'm hoping for is to get at the truth.

Peter.
Yawn. Of course Handschar etc. etc. tabs were used. But were they the DACHAU-STYLE tabs??

Dan.
You hit the nail right on the head.

Gordon.
Yes, Gary knows a lot about cloth. But if you 'put your money on his ability to sniff out fake cloth a mile off', you've just lost your money. Remember the Bevo tropical skull on camo backing saga last year??

Gary.
I'm trying not to make this personal. Honestly. Yes, I now know that at least one picture has appeared showing SS tropical helmet shields in wear. I wrote that book 10 years ago, for heavens sake. New information is always coming to light. As regards the totenkopf patch you posted, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. This is the type which has flooded the market for donkey's years. Look at all the dealer sites. I've yet to see it in a wartime picture. (And before some members start posting umpteen pictures of M40 horizontal skulls in wear - I'm talking about this particular pattern of skull. It has it's own distinctive lines and grin. There are hundreds of them about.) Gary, you've posted some very nice skulls in the past, but in my humble opinion this is not one of them. Can we see the back, please?

[Robin Lumsden]

And thanks to all those who have sent personal messages of support re. this subject.

You all know who you are!

[Robin Lumsden]

Gary.
If you posted that TK patch as a bit of a 'challenge' to me, can you please now post the back of it. That's only fair, isn't it? After all, I've passed judgement on it already, from my own point of view.
Ta.
Robin.

[Robin Lumsden]

ACHTUNG, DACHAU-BELIEVERS!


THERE ARE NOW 4 WELL-PRICED DACHAU PATCHES ON THE E-STAND!


WILL THE BELIEVERS NOW PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS AND BUY THESE TABS ??


SO FAR, 153 VIEWERS, BUT NOT A SINGLE TAKER !!


ROLL UP, ROLL UP !!


OFFER MUST END SOON !!



OR WAS THAT THUNDERING CRASH I JUST HEARD, THE BOTTOM FALLING OUT OF THE DACHAU PATCHES MARKET ??

[Peter Wiking]

Could we stop using large bold letters and do this in a respected and civil way ?

Cheers.
Peter Wiking