Question for Herr Lumsden!

[Basil]

[QUOTE=Robin Lumsden]
I know embroidered badges were issued right up until the end of the war, but in general terms the SS moved towards Bevo badges was the war progressed (Bevo runic and skull patches coming in in 1943). So why would all the later non-Germanic patches be embroidered??

Could it be that embroidery was easier to produce in the 1960s than woven items??

Robin,

Off the top of my head, the only foreign volunteer collar patch I can think of which was produced in Bevo format was for the 14th 'Galician' Division. All of the others which I have seen - in photos or in person - appear to have been embroidered.

Anyway, it seems to me that the best explanation for the non-use of all of these collar patches by non-Gerrmanic formations was the widespread use of SS runes which, from the evidence of surviving tunics, mostly appear to have been stitched on when the tunics were being manufactured and were presumably issued thus to the foreign volunteer formations.

You are, of course, fully entitled to hold your opinion but you don't seem to have any evidence to back it up, particularly bearing in mind the relatively strong eyewitness evidence which supports the opposite view.

Cheers,

Baz

[Gary Wood]

Chris,

Yes, I agree that a lot of fakes come with a story "from a VET", the story is irrelevant in my mind as the item has to stand on its own merits, the story is free you are buying the item.



And even though I posted Bob's buy which he personally bought from a US vet, what do I hear! it would be nice to see a picture of the vet with these items, but lets face it if someone was going to con you, you would get an old guy take a photo with the items and say this is the vet who brought them back, the only proof in some peoples eyes would be a vet taking the item from the shop/store/body of whatever now what are the chances of that happening, and even that would probably would not be proof for some people as all that could be staged as well.





The 60's fakes that were sold by the likes of delta when compared to originals are not a patch near, yes they fooled people in the 60's some are even fooled by them today, I recently posted some fake "MINT" delta patches on this forum so have a look then compare them, the thread is wrong the backing material is wrong the line is different, the buckram is wrong, lot's of differences.



As I have said to have different opinions is great, but you have to substantiate what you are saying especially publicly when going against the grain and Robins "personal" opinion and that is all it is really is not backed up with any evidence that I can see,



How many times have we all heard "it does not look like my original must be a fake" scenario



So again you prove to US that these items are fake!

cheers,

Gary

[Basil]

SS Map of February 1945

Going back to a point whch was made early on in this thread about the 'SS Map' of Feb 1945, it's also instructive to note that a number of collar patches which do feature on it were not amongst those found (or allegedly found!) at Dachau, specifically:

British Free Corps
French 'Sword and Laurel'
Bulgarian Lion
Rumanian... er... thing

And I'm not sure if I've seen any of the following being touted as 'Dachau' bring-backs:

Trident of Vladimir
'Eastern Church Cross'
Indian Tigers Head

Which suggests to me that the map has not been used as a 'fakers guide' to any great extent. Indeed, had Delta International or other repro manufacturers used the map they would have, for example, made a much better stab at patches like the BFC badge or the Karstflower.

Baz

[Chris_Werner]

What a great thread! The controversy here would make more faint-hearted collectors switch to Beanie Babies or Limited Edition Christmas Anniversary Plates!

[Tony Barto]

What a great thread! The controversy here would make more faint-hearted collectors switch to Beanie Babies or Limited Edition Christmas Anniversary Plates!

I really wouldn't call it controversy as much as just a difference of opinion. Some of us will accept first hand accounts of purchases being made from vets along with period photographic evidence of several of these items in wear and others wish not to accept what's been presented. Happens all the time. However, when this does happen in the face of glaring, undisputed evidence I believe the burden of proof or burden of refuting that proof should be on the person of a contrary opinion not the other way around.

[Chris_Werner]

Hey, I know my Christmas Plates are original. Direct blue-hair grandmother purchase!
Seriously, this whole thread points out the inherent difficulties with collecting what we collect, especially SS. In the chaotic "final days", who knows what actually happened. All I know is that American soldiers are habitual souvenier hunters, and the Dachau treasure trove was probably nirvana to them. I have no doubt that the clothing stores were picked clean of "gen-u-wine Nazi patches".
Another question is if the foreign SS members would have rather worn the Runes, or their "own" patches? I've heard many stories of unauthorized Rune wear by non-germanic troops. could they have not been issued because the divisions didn't want them, and they were never requested or delivered?
I do believe the evidence bears out the existance of many of the non-germanics being worn during the war, but a complete lack of photo evidence of some of the patches being worn makes me dubious. As stated previously, maybe they were made, but NEVER issued. MAybe a post war "fill-in" of the 1945 map, who knows. I doubt many veterans knew the the difference between which different types of patches they liberated. To my knowledge, none of them were issued the infamous 1945 map. All that has been filled in by us post-war collectors.

[Peter Wiking]

I would like to turn this the other way around.

If the white (light grey) threads on the back is a problem for its originality, why would a faker put these threads there from the begining ? A faker would know that those threads would start questions about its originality.

Peter Wiking

[Chris_Werner]

In Col. Angolia's book "Cloth Insignia of the SS", he states that it is not the existance of the line on the back, but the shade of grey that pegs it as original or repro.

[Gary Wood]

"I take your point about the panzer and Luft tabs, but let's widen the debate".

Then why was is used? surely you have thought this thing though before coming to you conclusion


"What I'm saying is that the Dachau range is suspicious in my view,"

WHY that is what I and no doubt others are saying and thinking, so why are they suspicious?,

you say
"I'm not saying that the lines on the back equals fake in all cases, or that no lines means originality. That would be naive.
What I'm saying is that the Dachau range is suspicious in my view, and the lines on the back are characteristic of that entire range."

You seem to be putting all the emphasis on the line as a way to determine if the item is real or a fake, this theory is flawed.

Remember the onus is on you to prove they are suspicious as its your theory

Chris,
While The delta fakes made in the 60's did have a line on the back and it was ONE of the characteristic of that fake range due to how the line was constructed which is completely different from the so called Dachau tabs, yes the thread they used is much darker colour, but the thread itself is also different,they also used a very unusual backing cloth, and the buckram they used was also different.

cheers,
Gary

[Chris_Werner]

I have a "mirror" rune with the white thread on the back. Hand embroidered aluminum thread, but the runes are at a different angle, almost standing straight up at 90 degrees with the long side of the tab. Is this a cutting line, or part of the construction of the tab? Has a RZM tag with a low number. I'll post it one of these days. It passes the burn and blacklight tests.

[John Hodgin]

The 'SA' collar patch in wear

In the late 1960's I saw an SA collar tab, black with silver-grey thread. This was in the hands of the veteran that brought it back, along with cap skulls and eagles, runic tabs, Waffen SS belt buckle, and a Deutschland officer's cuff title which he gave me And yes, I later traded the title for Fj.....

[Gary Wood]

Chris,
lets keep it to machine embroidered patches, machine embroidered items are made on a machine that has many embroidery heads, the cloth is fixed into a frame and the multiple heads all embroidered at the same time, this is controlled by the jacquard card system, which are basically oblong flexible cards with metal fittings top and bottom so you can join them together, they punched holes into them and these were fed into a selector which in turn moved the flat bed of the machine, in fact although this system has long been replaced, first by paper tape with holes in it a continuous loop, them came the computer age, but regardless when they make the designs they still even nowadays call it "punching", the heads are static its the cloth that moves in the frame, the cloth is many feet long depending on how many heads the machine has, once they have finished one cycle they would move the frame of cloth on the machine bed with a space template to help align the centre and make sure there would be no overlapping of the design, the reason the cutting lines are there is for finishing, without them you would have to leave greater spaces, otherwise when they are manually cut from the sheet some could be cut too small, this process also does away with manually marking the cloth before cutting with French chalk, which I am sure was used in the process pre war.

what i am trying to say is fakers have picked up that people accept the line on the back as a good sign, but have not understood the process there is no logic to why a hand embroidered tab would have such a line.
cheers,
Gary

[Peter Wiking]

Is it not possible to take one patch, photograph and record it carefully and then send the patch for age testing, C-14 i think its called.

Peter Wiking

[Basil]

I have, on several occasions, come across European collectors disparaging the Dachau insignia and I wonder if it's because this is one of the relatively few collecting areas where US collectors have an edge over us Europeans - after all, most of it appears to have gone to the US.

Cheers,

Baz

[Gary Wood]

Is it not possible to take one patch, photograph and record it carefully and then send the patch for age testing, C-14 i think its called.

Peter,
I am afraid the patches are not old enough yet
cheers,
gary

PS more patches with lines