Question for Herr Lumsden!

[Basil]

Can't really argue with that! Shame he didn't hold up some collar patches to show those pesky white stripes...

Baz

[Robin Lumsden]

At last we seem to be getting somewhere with this.

The Lee story is the sort of thing I'm after - tangible evidence.

Gary referred to 'old wives tales passed from collector to collector '. For 99.9% of the time, the Dachau story has been just that - a tale past from collector to collector and dealer to dealer. Who amongst you has personally obtained any of these badges from a vet, rather than a third party or dealer?? .

If we're now beginning to uncover tangible evidence linking US troops at Dachau with these badges, I'm happy to accept that. I still wouldn't have any of these badges in my own collection, but that's a personal decision.

Of course you can't take anything written in any book as gospel, Gary. Every book has its mistakes, as I think I've said before. By the way, the Forestry, Bahnschutz, Customs.........etc. They also used machine-embroidered patches.

Anyway, I've obviously ruffled a few feathers here, but the way the thread is going we could get some real benefit - tangible proof linking these badges to Dachau, instead of the usual hearsay.

[Peter Wiking]

Gary.

I hope you dont misunderstand me. I believe in the Dachau items. I believe in American soldiers removing the items from there and what we have today is original patches, eagles and cuff titles from Dachau. My answer where directed to Lumsden that requested photos. I dont think we will see that. Not many anyway.
As Gary says, there where a terrible loss in human life in that camp to deal with. Then we have political motives to not show photos of European unit insignia connected to the SS. As several people here say, several respected vets brought the items back. The items in question has the right construction and materials, so they stand perfectly good by them self. If one reads Uniforms Of The SS, Andrew Mollo Vol. 6, one will find that Dachau among other functions was the Hauptwirtschaftlager (Main Supply Depot) and Bekleidungslager (Clothing Depot) for the Waffen-SS
If we forget about Dachau for a moment, the items will look perfectly ok.

I hope we are finished with the cutting lines. I dont understand why they should be a problem. A few weeks ago, i bought a strip with HEER cap eagles in BEVO material. The strip has 3 eagles and they have a thin green line in the material, between them. The only function for this line would be to aid workers when they cut it for assebly on caps. The same is to be found on BEVO SS eagles and skulls to. Why not on the cloth/wool patches from Dachau ?

Cheers.
Peter Wiking

[Tony Barto]

At last we seem to be getting somewhere with this.

The Lee story is the sort of thing I'm after - tangible evidence.

Gary referred to 'old wives tales passed from collector to collector '. For 99.9% of the time, the Dachau story has been just that - a tale past from collector to collector and dealer to dealer. Who amongst you has personally obtained any of these badges from a vet, rather than a third party or dealer?? .

If we're now beginning to uncover tangible evidence linking US troops at Dachau with these badges, I'm happy to accept that. I still wouldn't have any of these badges in my own collection, but that's a personal decision.

Of course you can't take anything written in any book as gospel, Gary. Every book has its mistakes, as I think I've said before. By the way, the Forestry, Bahnschutz, Customs.........etc. They also used machine-embroidered patches.

Anyway, I've obviously ruffled a few feathers here, but the way the thread is going we could get some real benefit - tangible proof linking these badges to Dachau, instead of the usual hearsay.

I think for the majority of us posting here, tangible evidence already existed and all you have to do is open your eyes and ears to it. Ruffled feathers? No. Insulted? Most definitely.

[Robin Lumsden]

Peter et al.

Sorry. I've obviously not made myself clear.

The points I was trying to make are simply these:-

1. Various German uniformed organisations used embroidered patches. I've listed some of them above.
2. None of the others, so far as anyone has been able to show, had thread lines on the back.
3. In the 1960s/70s, Delta International fakes appeared with thread lines.
4. All the Dachau patches have thread lines (and I know they're different from the Delta fakes).

From the logical viewpoint, therefore:-

1. If no other type of embroidered patch had the lines, the makers could obviously cut them up properly without them. In other words, I would have to question whether these thread lines were cutting lines at all.

2. If they were not cutting lines, then they simply form part of the embroidery manufacturing process in the case of the Delta and Dachau patches.

3. This type of manufacturing process is not known on any other type of pre-45 patch (at least, so far as anyone has yet been able to show).

4. So is this a post-45 type of manufacturing process?

That was part of the logic behind my argument.

I know that most members so far disagree, and I've no problem with that.

I just thought this subject was worthy of discussion. I thought that's what the forum was for.

It looks like we are finally heading towards the situation where members may be able to post very convincing evidence to support the case that these patches were liberated from Dachau. If that is so, I'll be happy to accept that.

I'm just sick of hearsay stories which come to be accepted as gospel without back-up evidence, even flimsy evidence.

We all know someone who has obtained something 'directly from a vet'.

Isn't a lot of dealer stuff vet pick-up?

But, let's be honest here, how many of us can look into our own heart of hearts and say they have done so regularly, if at all??

I've been collecting for over 30 years and I can count the number of direct face-to-face vet pick-ups I've had on the fingers of one hand.

I'm not questioning the integrity of anyone, and certainly not of the US vets who liberated Dachau. They had a terrible job. Gary, Bob Hritz etc. etc. have great knowledge in this field.

What I was trying to do was find some tangible evidence that these Dachau tab stories that we all know so well, repeated from one book to another, and from one dealer to another, and from one collector to another, actually had some basis in fact.

We still haven't heard from the silent majority.

Does ANYONE else think this was a subject worthy of raising in the first place?

Is there ANYONE else out there who has even the slightest, teeny-weeniest, itsy-bitsiest doubt about these Dachau patches???

HELP!

[Chris_Werner]

One of the best threads I've read since becoming a forum member. To state the obvious, I don't know what the "true" story is as I wasn't there! I was born 13 years later.
The moral of the story is that you can't have enough information, and there will always be diferences of opinion on this subject. Whether you wish to collect non-germanics is a personal choice of each individual collector. For some, the comfort level is there, and for others, it's not.
But each collector should go into this with his or her eyes wide open, and have full knowledge of the "differences of opinions" on these tabs.
If anything else, this thread has accomplished that in a very excellent way!

[Robin Lumsden]

Chris.



EUREKA !!!



A fellow traveller!!!

[Robin Lumsden]

Brian (Bonini).

You started this !!




IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT !!!

[Chris_Werner]

"The search for truth takes us off the interstates and down dirt roads on occasion." Wise words from an old law professor after his 4th beer.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Did Lee make an effort to only take NON EXOTIC stuff?

I mean, some nice stuff there...but what are the chances that he only got totenkopf and SS patches etc. etc. and none of the really exotic stuff... law of averages?
I am sure his stuff is good...but why did the other guys come back with all the off the wall stuff?
Any chance of comparing his dachau Totenkopfs to "on the market" toenkopfs?

Why are guys coming out of the woodwork with 50 or 60 of the same badges? guys give stuff away, loose it, sell some... but it seems most 45th inf div vets kept a big suitcase of stuff bundled up for 50 years...

Can anyone present one of these Vets? I am sure when you meet a guy with a couple of hundred badges you keep his number just in case....

Are old folks honest? You get an old crook and offer him money at 80 to do a scam... age does not = honesty.

Do I know dachau badges are bad ? NO!
would I buy one? NO!

The arguments for these are as weak as the arguments against them.....

[Jean-Loup]

Pardon my ignorance; but where Dachau patches ever worn on uniforms? I seem to understand they werent. If so, why is this the case?
JL

[Tony Barto]

Pardon my ignorance; but where Dachau patches ever worn on uniforms? I seem to understand they werent. If so, why is this the case?
JL

Handshar.

Courtesy of Feldgrau.com

[Perry Floyd]

Gordon I would agree, B. Smith has purchased some outstanding and exotic items from veterans and their families. If there was a book on how to buy from a vet Barry should at the minimum write the Forward. It excites me and makes me think of new ways to search for these items when I see what he has uncovered. Mr. Lumsden with hard work and persistance you could be counting alot more direct vet purchases. I know I've done it and I'll bet I'm much younger than you. Buying directly from the vets time has nearly passed and it's his wife, son/daughter or grandchildren that you will get your information and the war booty from.

Now questions are raised can we produce a 45th or 42nd vet here on the forum. If that was done the bar would be raised higher. There are people that will allways be on the side of opposition no matter how solid things are. These people truely make up a very, very small minority as their logic of explanation recruits hardly no one.
The only thing the minority of opposition had brought forth to this table of discussion are the simple words of, " I do not believe". You cannot convince the inconvincable, you cannot sway the unswayable, you cannot reason with the unreasonable...

[Perry Floyd]

Tony what are they hoping for? That those tabs are fake or they wouldn't be found nowhere near Dachau?

The Hoax may be more like a great conspiracy, they even have the U.S. vets in on it...

[Peter Wiking]

Tony. I love you. Outstanding photo of the Handschar insignia being used.

Keep the faith.
Peter Wiking