Question for Herr Lumsden!

[TobyR]

Yes, it gets a bit tedious having to read oversized and constantly changing text.

Toby.

[Basil]

Robin,

Well yes, I would buy them were they not so ridiculously overpriced: none of them should be on sale for much more than $120-$150. But there is nothing wrong with them: all good examples of 'Dachau' found SS foreign volunteer insignia.

The reality Robin, is that you have pinned your colours to the 'it's all fake' mast, and I don't think anything is going to sway you. That really isn't the way that historical enquiry works.

Cheers,

Baz

[QUOTE=Robin Lumsden]
THERE ARE NOW 4 WELL-PRICED DACHAU PATCHES ON THE E-STAND!


WILL THE BELIEVERS NOW PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS AND BUY THESE TABS ??

[Gordon Williamson]

Gordon.
Yes, Gary knows a lot about cloth. But if you 'put your money on his ability to sniff out fake cloth a mile off', you've just lost your money. Remember the Bevo tropical skull on camo backing saga last year??

I very much doubt it. Unless your olfactory senses are internet-compatible you can’t "sniff out" a fake from looking at a picture on a PC screen. :-) I wouldn’t expect anyone to give a definitive opinion of a BeVo piece based purely on a low resolution JPEG image.

Once Gary had actually seen and handled an example in person he knew it was a fake right away. If I were seeking advice on SS cloth, I’d prefer to accept guidance from someone like Gary who does actually know what he is talking about. At least after examining a piece his opinions can be based not just on an extensive level of knowledge of the subject of SS cloth that few others possess, but this also being backed up by in-depth knowledge of textiles and textile manufacturing processes.

[trotlin13]

To All:

This thread has run its course. It has turned into nothing more than a pissing match between Gary and Robin on who knows more about SS cloth with each attempting to rally support for their cause. The debate and education on these Dachau tabs ended some time ago. Now all Im reading is banter from bruised egos. Respectfully,

Dylan

[Ian Hulley]

Hi Dan,you know me,an old BeVo shield collector.I agree with you in that I personally have never bothered to acquire the 'Dachau' shields even though I could have on numerous occasions however we're going to have to disagree on part of this...you say "Why on earth when the German war machine was in it's death throes, with materials in short supply creating inferior quality uniforms,did they knock out thousands of these shields?!" .... the answer my friend is the same reason as why they air-lifted condoms and suntan lotion (or whatever else it was) into the Stalingrad pocket....logistical cock-up,or even maybe just excessive efficiency..some company had a contract to manufacture the shields and while everything else was falling apart they did what Germans do...efficiently do what they are contracted to.There are stories that in the remaining badge (and possibly dagger) factories where materials allowed the production barely stopped at the end of the war,the only difference being one month the IIIrd Reich payed for the produce and next month the occupying forces bought them instead as souvenirs,all-be-it on a less organised basis.
It does seem strange though that the B.F.C. shields were ordered in a small batch of 200 or something like that (the exact number escapes me) and yet the Skanderbeg/Italien etc etc shields crop up in their thousands,I guess the RF-SS was ambitious for them and more realistic with us Brits.

Kind regards,Ian Hulley.

[Gary Wood]

"Gary.
If you posted that TK patch as a bit of a 'challenge' to me, can you please now post the back of it. That's only fair, isn't it? After all, I've passed judgement on it already, from my own point of view."

Robin,
That is true, but first you tell me what you think the back will show?
cheers,
Gary

[Gary Wood]

Robin,

you still have not commented on the runic I pictured in post # 40 I have asked you what you have thought about it in more than one post but you have commented yet real or fake?
cheers,
Gary

[Perry Floyd]

I'd like him to answer if his theory is so correct how did all these vets fool all these pickers/collectors with the same type of items....How was it done?

Bring something to the table of discussion besides "I don't believe". Tell us what happened then....put together the scenerio as to what you think happened..

[Gary Wood]

"To All:

This thread has run its course. It has turned into nothing more than a pissing match between Gary and Robin on who knows more about SS cloth with each attempting to rally support for their cause. The debate and education on these Dachau tabs ended some time ago. Now all Im reading is banter from bruised egos. Respectfully,

Dylan"


Dylan,
thanks for your comments and while it has got heated I do not think its turned into a pissing match, The issue here is not who Knows most there are far more knowledgeable people out there than me some have probably forgotten more than I know that is not my issue, I am just a small fish in a large sea.

The real point is the "theory" and it is a theory with no facts or evidence to support it that is going totally against the grain,not only that The theory is basically saying that the story of vet buys like this are lies, or the vets themselves are fraudulent and liars, notice also the comments are always regarding the collar insignia, well what about the mass of cuff titles which are visible in Bob Hritz's display, are these fakes as well!

I know a lot of people do not want to get involved in this sort of confrontational debate for fear of having to justify themselves and at the end of the day why should they, there are guys that are members here who specialise in these type of patches and I can understand why they do not want to get involved, but I would say to them think about it, someone in Robins position should not come out with blatant theories that are based on there are always a lot of them around thus they must be fake, that method is flawed and dangerous, be it on a forum or in a book, the forums are not like books forums can and do bite back.


The Internet has basically put the world in your living room, so you now see more due to all corners of the globe being on show, the fact that there are always more foreign volunteer items for sale that standard runic and tk's does than mean they are fake, no if you look you will see its mainly the less desirable items in the collectors minds that are out there, yet some in reality are quite scarce, but also price will also dictate if the item will sell, just because they do not sell does not mean they are not real, also just because there are no photo's of them being worn again does not mean they are not real.



Now if theories like this go unchecked next thing you know its fact,

Think now about the novice collector who is out there trying to make his way through the mind field,

Think of those guys who will read that the Dachau tabs are fake and get rid off them.

This is why a lot of collectors just stick to standard issue items for fear of being burned. theories like this add fuel to the greatly increasing paranoia amongst collectors,

Now think about when you go to shows how many iron crosses do you see how many of the other common badges, what about all the BeVo tropical cap skulls, the BeVo tropical sleeve eagles, are these fake because there are a lot around! about 2 years ago someone I knew picked up a roll of tropical cap skull there was 1200 plus on the roll, which have now been broken up and sold probably all around the world so that would create a glut if you like.
cheers,
gary

[Tony Barto]

The real point is the "theory" and it is a theory with no facts or evidence to support it that is going totally against the grain,not only that The theory is basically saying that the story of vet buys like this are lies, or the vets themselves are fraudulent and liars, notice also the comments are always regarding the collar insignia, well what about the mass of cuff titles which are visible in Bob Hritz's display, are these fakes as well!

I know a lot of people do not want to get involved in this sort of confrontational debate for fear of having to justify themselves and at the end of the day why should they, there are guys that are members here who specialise in these type of patches and I can understand why they do not want to get involved, but I would say to them think about it, someone in Robins position should not come out with blatant theories that are based on there are always a lot of them around thus they must be fake, that method is flawed and dangerous, be it on a forum or in a book, the forums are not like books forums can and do bite back.


The Internet has basically put the world in your living room, so you now see more due to all corners of the globe being on show, the fact that there are always more foreign volunteer items for sale that standard runic and tk's does than mean they are fake, no if you look you will see its mainly the less desirable items in the collectors minds that are out there, yet some in reality are quite scarce, but also price will also dictate if the item will sell, just because they do not sell does not mean they are not real, also just because there are no photo's of them being worn again does not mean they are not real.



Now if theories like this go unchecked next thing you know its fact,

Think now about the novice collector who is out there trying to make his way through the mind field,

Think of those guys who will read that the Dachau tabs are fake and get rid off them.

This is why a lot of collectors just stick to standard issue items for fear of being burned. theories like this add fuel to the greatly increasing paranoia amongst collectors,


cheers,
gary

[Eric Queen]

Eric.
Were there any TABS among this lot? That would be interesting to know.

Yes, there were over 100 SS black tabs ( Totenkopf, many foreign volunteer units, the penal unit and the "SA" ones as I mentioned ). All were the RZM style ( grey thread on black wool ). The rest of the insignia were sleeve diamonds, volunteer shields, sleeve eagles, etc.

Eric

[Basil]

Ian Hulley wrote:
It does seem strange though that the B.F.C. shields were ordered in a small batch of 200 or something like that (the exact number escapes me) and yet the Skanderbeg/Italien etc etc shields crop up in their thousands,I guess the RF-SS was ambitious for them and more realistic with us Brits.

According to Adrian Weale's 'Renegades' there were 800 BFC shields made in late 1943. I guess the difference is that the Skanderbeg and Italians were always intended to be divisions while the BFC was a small experimental unit.

Cheers,

Baz

[prorege1]

"Dachau" tabs

"Dachau" tabs were indeed produced and used, also by Danish volunteers i.e. the "Nordland" sunwheel collar tab. Several of these have been obtained directly from the Danish W-SS veterans, not through dealers or similar, and they show either a single or double row of stiches on the reverse. An example is the attached photo of a Danish volunteer in Div "Nordland".

[prorege1]

And here is a tab obtained directly from a Danish vet

[prorege1]

And the reverse