Question for Herr Lumsden!

[WARLORD]

Off topic please keep on topic, Dachau insignia

thanks
Gary

[Dan T]

Ditto Off topic please keep on topic, Dachau insignia

thanks
Gary

[Basil]

Robin,

Well, actually you do. The various disclaimers which you have issued over the course of this thread are meaningless because you will not allow yourself to alter your view. I understand why you do this: your beliefs underpin your collecting 'raison d'etre'; but for me this has been an enlightening, though not entirely surprising, exchange.

Where have we got to? Well the real specialist collectors - Gary Wood, Tony Barto and, by extension, Bob Hritz and David Delich - accept the evidence presented by eye-witnesses and participants and agree that the substantial numbers of unissued SS insignias which still circulate come from a hoard found by US service personnel at Dachau in May 1945. You, on the other hand, grudgingly accept that US personnel may have found some badges but refuse to accept a connection between these and what you say are 'zillions' of 'Dachau' patches which now infest the market. Without having produced a plausible theory for where these patches come from - and Gary has demonstrated that they are different to the Delta International patches which have hitherto been amongst the most troublesome fakes - you are also explicitly claiming that these old vets who sell these items to collectors like Bob Hritz are parties to a conspiracy to defraud collectors. Hmm.

Historians, like policemen, rely on evidence and you have yet to produce any.

Cheers,

Baz

Robin Lumsden wrote:

Oh - and Baz. I don't need a lecture on the niceties of historical inquiry

[Jean-Loup]

I asked at one point if Dachau insignia was ever worn. As a reply a nice picture was posted of Handschar, witch was supposed to mean as I understand "yes they were used"; but no clear answere was received.
But then Robin Lumsden posted the following: "Of course Handschar etc. etc. tabs were used. But were they the DACHAU-STYLE tabs??"
So I dont understand, were Dachau tabs ever worn or not??
Sorry for asking such a primitive question, but I think knowing if these tabs were ever worn or not can be interesting for this thread.
JL

[Robin Lumsden]

Baz.

Sorry to harp on about this, but if you read back through all the posts I've made on this subject you'll see that I've laid out quite clearly the reasons why I personally doubt whether all today's so-called 'Dachau tabs' can be linked directly with the material removed from Dachau by the US vets.

Yes. You're right. Historians and policemen rely on evidence. But there has to be an UNBROKEN CHAIN of evidence. That has always been the point I have tried to make here. So far as these tabs are concerned, I'm just not convinced that the evidential link is there.

I don't think there's much more I can say. I've said it all before.

Regards,

Robin.

[SgtB]

Off topic please keep on topic, Dachau insignia
Gary

I'm sorry to have to break this to you, but Dachau insignia is not
the topic of this thread!

My fee? One Dachau tab from each of you will be sufficient!

[Robin Lumsden]

Brian.

Don't you wish you'd never started this thread??

I do!!

Regards,

Robin.

[Basil]

Robin,

I think the point is that from 42/45 ID vet to, for example, Bob Hritz, to, for example, me (and I've bought a few pieces from Bob), is an unbroken chain as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, you're right; it's probably time to pull the plug on this thread now. I completely disagree with you, but I admire the fact that you have stuck to your guns with - what I believe to be - a losing argument.

Anyway, it's nice that we can have these debates without everyone throwing their teddy out of the pram.

Best wishes,

Baz

Robin Lumsden wrtote:

Yes. You're right. Historians and policemen rely on evidence. But there has to be an UNBROKEN CHAIN of evidence. That has always been the point I have tried to make here. So far as these tabs are concerned, I'm just not convinced that the evidential link is there.

[Perry Floyd]

Jean Loup go back to page 1 and reread, you will find what your asking..

Ok, Mr. Lumsden so what your saying is only certain items were found at Dachau but there are certain items that were not? What was there and what wasn't then? Everything but those tabs were found there??

Mr. Lumsden I'm sorry you wished this was never posted but you have to realize when you make the statements you do the evidence will bombard you. If I went to the Iron Cross section and said that the brass centered Iron crosses are fantasy what do you think would happen(I guess you think those are ok).
Or I said no member of the 101st brought back any of Hitlers personality items..your statement is right among those lines. The stashes brought back by the 45th and 42nd veterans is legendary in the U.S., all having the same items and all with the same story...

[SgtB]

Don't you wish you'd never started this thread??

Not at all, Robin! In fact I have a couple more questions!

[Robin Lumsden]

Baz (and Gary).

That's it exactly.

Friendly disagreement is what makes the world go round. It would get boring if we all believed and said the same thing.

I hope we can now close this thread, content in the knowledge that we have all had a chance to air our own opinions.

Best regards,

Robin.

[Gary Wood]

"I'm sorry to have to break this to you, but Dachau insignia is not
the topic of this thread!

My fee? One Dachau tab from each of you will be sufficient!"



Brian,
I know, I know ,I know but it soon became the dachau saga,

If you have other questions then please start another thread don't tag them on here otherwise I might get more confused that I already am!!!!!!!!!!.
cheers,
Gary

[Mike S]

A few thoughts: if I had posted that I had doubts about the "zillions" of mint Dachau foreign volunteer collar tabs, no one would have even responded and this thread would be (rightly so) buried about 5 pages back. If you are the author of some books, your opinion is held in higher esteem and people will take notice of what you say.

It has been established through photographic evidence that at least some of the collar tabs were worn during the war, i.e. Handshar, Prinz Eugen, Hunyadi, MT etc. Mr. Lumsden appears concerned that these may not be the ones that were brought back by US Army veterans, and the main area of concern seems to be the offending white stitch lines on the back. Even though all the evidence points to these items being original, he will not accept them until he sees photos of GI's with the items at Dachau. And I suppose the photos must show the backs of the tabs as well as the fronts to really prove anything. I myself would like to see the photos of Allied troops with captured Foreign volunteer tabs that are WITHOUT the stitch lines on the backs. Until such a photo appears, I will continue to believe the likes of Bob Hritz who has gotten a lot of these from the veterans who brought them back.

As for Himmler never approving an SA tab, lets not forget that he would never approve of Albanians, Croatians, Italians, Russians, etc. serving in the SS.

Regards,
Mike

[Perry Floyd]

Mike I believe no matter who you are, anyone that came on here and made the statement about all this Dachau cloth insigna brought back by U.S. vets is a myth would have recieved the same. Just like if I would have posted on the EK forum brass cored EK's are fantasy pieces. Or veterans of the 101 didn't bring anything back that belong to Hitler.

A far fetched statement will get this response no matter who you are. Actually I think if your a author in that field makes it even more astounding to claim such a theory...
How would that be fair to History not to shoot holes in such a theory?

[Dan T]

I know we are now on last knockings but I do feel a few things need to be said.
The last couple of posts from Robin have been conciliatory after a long and bruising thread.
I must say though Gary, that yours have been in the same vein as earlier and provocative. This is on top of editing mine and Warlord's posts which were not offensive etc.
Seems to be a trait of WAF moderators to hit that delete button.
Robin, like myself, are Police officers who treat evidence carefully. We look for more than "he said this" and "he said that". Robin asked for some photographic evidence LINKING these Dachau "goodies" to US vets.
To me, not an unreasonable request considering the volume of troops going through Dachau and the many photos of War Booty being displayed of other items.
No, nothing appeared just more of the "he said this" and "he said that". There is no WW2 photographic of the stuff being worn. So for me, sorry, doubts still remain. A personal choice.
If people wish to believe and invest money fine. I would not and nothing in this thread has made reconsider my previous held view.