SS evening dress Broach

[Richard P]

Naval Enigma...is there an "800" stamped anywhere on your example badge you are photographing? I have been told that pre-Third Reich German law required that true silver items be stamped with a silver content stamp such as an "800."

Richard

[Naval Enigma]

Naval Enigma...is there an "800" stamped anywhere on your example badge you are photographing? I have been told that pre-Third Reich German law required that true silver items be stamped with a silver content stamp such as an "800."

Richard

I haven't detected any assay marks. There might be one under the paint.

[Leroy]

Naval Enigma - Your Post #341 is one of the most intelligent I have ever seen posted on this Forum.

(P.S. - I think it was against the law to falsely mark a silver content, but not to omit it.)

[maui]

XRF technology could break down the elements of the badge in question with no problem. Anyone who owns one of the badges could easily rent an XRF gun that also picks up light elements ( Aluminum, etc ) and determine the composition of the badge. Here is a link from early 2009 showing a Deschler Totenkopf elemental breakdown.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=341154

[Thorsten B.]

Richard,

Regarding that mentioned law (which is still in existence up to this day) you are correct in regards to:

§. 2.
Auf goldenen Geräthen darf der Feingehalt nur in 585 oder mehr Tausendtheilen, auf silbernen Gerathen nur in 800 oder mehr Tausendtheilen angegeben werden.

= Golden pieces have to be marked from 585/1000 onwards, silver pieces only from 800/1000 onwards.


Nonetheless regarding pieces of jewelry a part of §5 - and this piece belongs into that category - of that law comes into play:

§5.
Schmucksachen von Gold und Silber dürfen in jedem Feingehalte gestempelt werden und ist in diesem Falle der letztere in Tausendtheilen anzugeben.

= Pieces of jewelry made of gold and silver are allowed to be stamped in EVERY fineness and in this case that fineness has to be indicated in X/1000.


So not only "800" or upwards but also for example "325", "385" or also lower or higher.

[Arran]

I think D. Delich owns the Ribbentrop ensemble- perhaps someone could ask him about the composition of the buttons...

[Leroy]

Thorsten - Doesn't the law mean that you are only allowed to claim something as being "real" silver if it has an .800 (or higher) fineness, and something as being "real" gold only if it has a .585 (or higher) fineness? You could have something which meets these standards as silver (or gold), but would not be required to mark if it you didn't want to (or punished if you forgot to).

It would be illegal to mark a silver piece with a higher fineness than it actually has (such as marking something with an .800 fineness as '935'). Under the jewelry section, you can mark something as containing some particular percentage of silver (or gold) to accurately reflect its true content, up or down, even if it did not qualify to meet to the full minimum "real" standard, because you're not claiming it to rise to that standard.

I'm asking this because I have seen German items test as .800 (and higher) silver, but not be marked.

[Thorsten B.]

In general any silver or gold pieces do not have to be marked in regards to their fineness - but IF the jeweler/producer/distributer decides to do so THEN this law and it´s content has to be followed:

Due to it´s §2 pieces of silver and gold as such in general (NOT including jewelry) are only allowed to be marked if their fineness is 800 or higher.

Jewelry pieces are allowed to be marked in any fineness.

The translation of mine was not the best in my initial comment on this one but I hope we clearified that.

[Leroy]

Thanks, Thorsten!

[SScollector]

John Pic, you ask where are all of the other silver tux badges. Well, I doubt that you will ever see another because there are not many people that would waste their time making such a hideous looking thing as that one. In fact, I don't understand how anyone could try to make a cast and it come out that bad. This belongs on eBay or the trash can. If you are having problems telling the difference between that and an original after going over this entire thread, then I feel sorry for what you might end up with in your collection.
Maybe you should consider collecting bottle caps. I think I speak for almost everyone else, when I say that this is just ridiculous and that no one should ever need a degree in SS collecting to know that.

Also, all of that BS about machines that can make micro laser super fakes is hilarious.
That kind of technology is science fiction and will be for the next 500 years.
I've seen laser copies and every other fake method used and they miss every important feature
every single time. If you think that the perfect fake can be made, show me and I guarantee
that it can be seen. Please stop trying to ruin this great thread with BS.

Chris

[John Pepera]

[Craig Gottlieb]

Been out all day, but read with interest the posts from today. Modern technology of the type that Naval Enigma speaks IS possible, but it still will not yield a perfect reproduction. Good enough to fool a room full of dealers and advanced collectors at a show? Certainly. Good enough to survive razor-sharp analysis of the type that is occurring with these tuxedo badges, with the luxury of time, collaboration, and scientific tools? Certainly not.

I am still looking for aluminum examples of KNOWN ORIGINAL Tuxedo bars, as I am interested in conducting x-ray analysis. Please contact me if you have one to loan for this endeavor. All postage and insurance will be covered by me. As Naval says, it's not the "be all and end all" of analysis, but it does give us knowledge, and that is always a step in the right direction.

As for the silver examples? Kevin: Can you tell me what yours is made of exactly, and the story of how many you found, and where they came from? It's an interesting chapter to add in the story of these ultra-rare artifacts. In fact, as far as rarity goes, I can't think of something SS that's rarer.

[Thorsten B.]

I can.

[Thorsten B.]

But back to Kevin´s example:

If that silver piece would indeed turn out to be original - who made it in the period?

[Craig Gottlieb]

Lets PLEASE refrain from personal attacks and comments here. This is a great thread. If I called one participant here a "white supremacist racist anti-semite" would that help the discussion? No, it would not. Lets keep to a discussion of these bars, please.

To bring the discussion back to the bars, I will still call out for anybody with a real Aluminum version, to loan it to me so I can x-ray it. Kevin: I would love the chance to x-ray your silver bar as well. Please contact me offline if you wish. craig@craiggottlieb.com.