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    #46
    Originally posted by kass View Post
    This is just sketched (well I remembered these as such but it seems to be a photocopied image with really bad quality?) image that I believe have no origin from original piece. From the same series or should I say same way of stylization is the sketched(how I described it before) E/sword that reminded me the tab posted here from the starter of this thread. E with a flat sword.

    And in Estonia there were no production of metal runes. They were produced in Latvia.
    Its not a sketch, not an illustration, its a bad quality scan out of one of Bender's Waffen SS books. I AM REPOSTING IT BELOW IN #48!
    One of several pictures in the book of embroidered 2nd pattern tabs....clearly a true patch, but if its real? (from the 1970's...) Who knows? The book does not claim that only Dachau 2nd pattern patches are period. Hand embroidered examples (even after the fall of Estonia) are not an impossibility...stating/showing several variants even in this well researched book.

    Here's a side-by-side comparison of the hand embroidered one with unterlagen (which I'm buying back from David because he prefers official patterns) and the German Dachau one!
    Nick
    PS: You are right about the metal flashes, Latvian made...my mistake...mix-up...
    Attached Files
    Last edited by NickG; 03-14-2009, 02:01 PM.

    Comment

      #47
      So this is a fantasy patch Sturmmann?
      Only Dachau made "mailed arm+ sword" and metal "mailed arm+sword" types
      are accepted period examples with Estonian collectors??
      Attached Files
      Last edited by NickG; 03-14-2009, 01:55 PM.

      Comment

        #48
        Here's the other one again...better image! ITS NOT A SKETCH KASS!!!
        Attached Files
        Last edited by NickG; 03-14-2009, 01:42 PM.

        Comment

          #49
          Official one...like the example in post 44. A "no-risk" tab! Its a controversial topic, that's for sure!
          Attached Files
          Last edited by NickG; 03-14-2009, 01:51 PM.

          Comment

            #50
            for me the only original types are:

            1. the tartu medical instruments factory manufactured pattern (issued in 11.02.1944)
            2. dachau 1. pattern - letter "E" with a sword - issued in mid june 1944
            3. dachau 2. pattern - mailed arm, sword and "E" - issued in october 1944

            last year a photo album about estonian legion was published in estonia and i was cooperating with the making of that book for 2 years. during that time i saw ca. 3000 photos about estonians in german army and i noticed all 3 different patterns from the photos and none of these examples that nickg posted here before.

            i've seen that ugly tab with mailed arm, ice cream (?) and "E" in internet couple of times before and i have always considered it to be fake.

            Comment

              #51
              I respect your opinion and certainly photographic evidence of non standard
              2nd pattern collar tabs would make the case these were used, otherwise its speculation. I have a more open mind (and book authors do make mistakes)
              Do you know H.Rüütel Collection ? which shows the non-standard 2nd pattern tab in the book.

              Sturmmann, is it this book you helped with? Is it available in the USA?
              Attached Files
              Last edited by NickG; 03-15-2009, 09:09 PM.

              Comment

                #52
                ofcourse book authors make mistakes.
                i just gave You my opinion on the subject which doesn't mean that it might be 100% true. just my observations i've made during 9 years of collecting and studying different insignias in 20. ss division.

                never heard about h.rüütel.
                maybe You could post a good photo of his non-standard 2. pattern tab?

                Comment

                  #53
                  Its not a sketch, not an illustration, its a bad quality scan out of one of Bender's Waffen SS books. One of seveal pictures in the book
                  Yes. My mistake. I just remembered these as an illustration due to the bad quality. Anyway I am skeptical about both tabs posted here. But never the less IMO NickG has an interesting theory about production of embroidered tabs in Estonia. I mean who was that group of soldiers or officials who were promoting this idea that Division should have the mailed arm and E insignia? And maybe they showed some initiative and ordered a small batch of tabs that later was a prototype and an example for German manufacture. Like Tartu ones. Who`s idea it was? Nobody knows. Suddenly they were given to the troops and after that there was an order for more put in. But metal ones are easier and quicker to produce than handmade. That`s my thoughts.
                  I`ll just post some pictures of known Estonian made insignias. Mainly for the ss.
                  Tartu made mailed arm and E.


                  Tartu made skull and eagle.



                  Probably Tartu made lions and shield. Single lions were worn on the side of a M43 cap also. Mainly worn by the Police and SD as seen from the photos


                  Probably Tartu made Estonian Republic style cockade. Unknown who wore them.


                  Various handmade shields. Mainly used by WH. Later when merged with 20th SS they were still worn.



                  Unknown maker but probably "Varrak" printhouse in Tartu, that, according to the 1944 newspaper article, printed shields with lions as a gift on Liberation Day to all men in the Major Kurg battalion(WH/boarder guard regiment)
                  Worn by the boarder guard regiments (WH) as seen on the pictures.

                  Comment

                    #54
                    Nice items Kass!

                    On this great (and well known) site owned by a fellow WAF member Rene Chavez, there is another example of an embroidered
                    Mailed Arm+Sword collar tab with the claim that its Estonian made...
                    http://axis101.bizland.com/CollarTabs02.htm

                    I believe its a logical "evolution" to go from :
                    (1) added metal insignia on blank collar tabs to
                    (2) (hand)embroidered versions of the same (preferred in favor of the 1st pattern German style), to
                    (3) finally the official accepted German made 2nd pattern Mailed Arm version, an adoption of the Estonian Mailed Arm design.

                    This tab (with officer's piping) was on an Estonian forum which both Kass (moderator) and Sturmmann (owner?) participate. I don't read Estonian,
                    so I'm not sure what the verdict was, but its worth sharing here ! VERY SQAURE... ALMOST TOO SQUARE TO BE GERMAN MADE!
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by NickG; 03-15-2009, 10:14 PM.

                    Comment

                      #55
                      Originally posted by kass View Post
                      IMO NickG has an interesting theory about production of embroidered tabs in Estonia. I mean who was that group of soldiers or officials who were promoting this idea that Division should have the mailed arm and E insignia? And maybe they showed some initiative and ordered a small batch of tabs that later was a prototype and an example for German manufacture. Like Tartu ones. Who`s idea it was? Nobody knows. Suddenly they were given to the troops and after that there was an order for more put in. But metal ones are easier and quicker to produce than handmade. That`s my thoughts.
                      [/IMG]
                      I agree that there might be lack of clear photos proving in addition to metal mailed arm tabs also embroidered ones were made (prior to Neuhammer's issuance of the official ones),
                      but it only makes sense! Why besides metal ones would they not have been made embroidered? but I agree metal ones are easier to create...
                      The Estonians were very proud of that insignia taken right off of their medals and also adopted on their vehicles as unit stencil (initially unofficialy done!).
                      Here an Estonian RSO!
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by NickG; 03-15-2009, 09:10 PM.

                      Comment

                        #56
                        Originally posted by Sturmmann View Post
                        never heard about h.rüütel.
                        maybe You could post a good photo of his non-standard 2. pattern tab?
                        This is the best I can do unfortunately and no image of the back I'm afraid...
                        Its clearly NOT a Dachau made one... but looks similar, just like the tab I sold to Dave (and taking back)...
                        Compare with post 27...very square looking, so is it the Estonian made "grandfather" (or prototype) of the Dachau tab perhaps?
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by NickG; 03-15-2009, 10:11 PM.

                        Comment

                          #57
                          The uniform is police...
                          (the machine gun captured Russian PPSH or Finnish Suomi type)
                          the bike stencil = Estonian SS!! Mailed arm with sword!
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by NickG; 03-15-2009, 10:35 PM.

                          Comment

                            #58
                            Various 2nd pattern tabs in use here...metal ? and embroidered...
                            (or all cloth? or Dachau made / fieldmade?)
                            If this image was taken at Neuhammer, why weren't all troops issued the same tabs?
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                              #59
                              Originally posted by Sturmmann View Post
                              for me the only original types are:

                              1. the tartu medical instruments factory manufactured pattern (issued in 11.02.1944)
                              2. dachau 1. pattern - letter "E" with a sword - issued in mid june 1944
                              3. dachau 2. pattern - mailed arm, sword and "E" - issued in october 1944

                              last year a photo album about estonian legion was published in estonia and i was cooperating with the making of that book for 2 years. during that time i saw ca. 3000 photos about estonians in german army and i noticed all 3 different patterns from the photos and none of these examples that nickg posted here before.

                              i've seen that ugly tab with mailed arm, ice cream (?) and "E" in internet couple of times before and i have always considered it to be fake.
                              - Have you seen this one:



                              Another variation with a slopy sword on the guy on the left:





                              P.S. I remember seeing way more photos of different tab variations on wehrmacht.pri.ee, can't seem to find them now.

                              Comment

                                #60
                                BINGO! Good example Askold, indeed a non-Dachau pattern embroidered Mailed Arm!
                                Its from Sturmmann's great web site looking at the source tag!
                                I think we have proof now of these being made prior to the Dachau official one!
                                Case closed as far as I'm concerned!
                                Attached Files
                                Last edited by NickG; 03-16-2009, 12:07 AM.

                                Comment

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