Estonian Collar Tab

[D Davies]

as anyone ever seen a tab with this construction before
Cheers
Dave.

[kass]

Hi Nick Kass Sturmmann would this be the tab you are talking about.

Hi. What do You mean exactly? If that is the second official type tab design, then yes.

This tab appears to have an unterlagen, which would mean that it is hand embroidered.

Second that. Is there a cardboard template under the embroidery? Never seen or heard hand embroidered ones. But maybe they did exist....... So if division demanded their own design could the first ones been handmade prototypes before the machines were set to produce the "hoards"? IMO Its easier to toss some templates to KZ prisoners to embroider them, than to mess with the machines. Just pondering here.

There`s only one 2nd type embroidered tab found so far in Estonia (as I and Sturmmann know ) So like Sturmmann said the first were small batch that was given to Kriegberichters and heck knows to who. Ive never seen the Estonian found tab. Maybe Sturmmann can get some images of that?

[Sturmmann]

in my opinion the 2. pattern hand embroidered tab is obvious fake.

[NickG]

in my opinion the 2. pattern hand embroidered tab is obvious fake.

I respect your opinion Sturmmann, but it is a well known fact that with all the larger foreign legions there was demand for such insignia, so local production kicked in. So called cottage industry! Examples are many many... like the Dutch made Wolfhook tabs, Dutch made legion cuff titles, the Belgian made SS tabs, Belgian made "Leopolds" SS eagles,SS buckles, Belgian made Hitler-Jugend cuff titles (unit formed in Belgium) Latvian made shields from Riga (stamped on the back the name of the craft shop in the Adolf Hilter str. in Riga + tel number, I sold one to a waf member in Ireland), Estonian made metal mailed arm tabs (field made or jeweler made), Estonian made SS flashes in metal for the tabs, Estonian made "Tartu" SS cap skulls and (small) eagles, tri-color arm shields, Estonian made "Estland" cuff title etc...etc... Many of these insignia come no where close to German made versions and would be considered fake by those who did not know of these foreign patterns...
Did you know that the Dutch unit "Landstorm" used pre-war RZM style blank Algemeine SS cuff titles imported from Germany with RZM tags and simply stencil sprayed in silver paint capital letters the unit name on these! Its all possible! If you did not know you would laugh at these examples and they're real!

So why is the theory (or likelyhood) of locally made Estonia collar tabs (both first and second pattern styles, embroidered) being questioned?? I realize that the 2nd pattern was officially adopted and issued (german made of course) at Neuhammer when the Division was being rebuilt (Winter 44/45) so after Estonia was lost, but could unofficial Baltic originating versions (metal and embroidered) not have existed prior to that? Which eventually lead to the introduction of the German made official 2nd pattern design, after Himmler caved in and allowed it's production?

BTW this tunic with 1st pattern embroidered tab (crudely made) sold for a LOT of money last year from a very respected dealer. No unterlagen on that one!!!
Nick

[NickG]

BTW that 2nd pattern embroidered Estonian collar tab that D.Davies posted in #27 and #28, used to belong in my collection and is as far as I can tell it is more or less a facsimile of the one in Hugh Page Taylor's SS book Vol. 5 (Bender Publ.) from the H.Rüütel Collection (1970's).... similar both in shape and size...obviously larger and more square than German made tabs! SEE BELOW comparison!

Its neat because of the unterlagen, but I know why you are doubting it...its because you've never seen one like this before... It is not a "well known fake" not a "Trident" repro or "Delta" repro... Not an obvious fake like those patterns. I realize because the embroidery goes through the buckram backing you are doubting it...automatically discrediting it, but why is that not a possibility? Its NOT German made...does not have the white border stitching on the back as German ones have. Its Baltic made.
(I just doubt the one that started this thread because of the skinny "E")

D.Davies, if you are reading this and now you might have doubts about that embroidered 2nd pattern Estonian tab being legit now, I would gladly buy it back from you in a heart beat!!! (I really was hesitant about selling it in the first place but you saw it in my collection and asked...so I let it go, regretting it now...)

[NickG]

What about this (non German?) 2nd pattern? Also shown in Bender's book...
Again very square and very un-German looking... Not conclusively proven to be real...
but it's another example that makes the case that embroidered (early?)variations of the
2nd (final) pattern Estonian tab did exist prior to the Neuhammer barracks introduction
of the German (Dachau) made one...

[NickG]

Here examples of the easy to spot fakes that are floating around on the web.
No brainers! All bad! Day and night difference!

[NickG]

One of my most favorite ww2 portraits! Tab looks tall and square to me...
Is it a German Neuhammer official tab? Probably...Just a neat image of the 2nd pattern
embroidered tab in wear!

[Sturmmann]

it is very true that dutch, belgian, latvian and estonian factories produced insignias during 2. world war.

what makes me very skeptical about this hand embroidered 2. pattern tab is:

1. the measurements of the tab are different from the factory made - but that is quite normal considering it was handmade. i will add a photo which nickg posted in WAF some time ago. as You can see the left blank tab has also different measurements compared to factory made tabs. so my question is - if the soldier wanted the mailed arm, sword and "E" tab then why bother making also the new blank tab?



2. as nickg mentioned before there were a lot of locally made insignias - some factories in estonia produced waffen-ss cap skulls and eagles. in tartu medical instruments factory metal version of the mailed arm, sword and "E" were produced. etc.
now about this hand emroidered 2. pattern tab - it is not factory made and it is not produced in estonia. why couldn't it have been produced in estonia? in my opinion because the official 2. pattern tab was introduced in neuhammer in october 1944 and by that time estonia was already lost to soviet union. and the handembroidered tab is made exactly after the original factory made.

3. soldiers made the national insignias before there were any factory made ones - which is from 1943 to mid 1944. if You look at the photos taken in neuhammer camp until the end of the war then You can see that the 2. official pattern is very common and widely used. so my question is that why make your own tab which looks almost identical to the factory made one if you could just get the official dachau manufactured one?

[D Davies]

I would like to thank everyone for there time and valued opinions.
I have sent you a pm Nick.
Cheers
Dave.

[TomH]

As the originator of this thread, I would like to echo those thanks! It's been very informative, sometimes there is no absolute conclusions, just informed opinion and speculation.

I would like to thank everyone for there time and valued opinions.
I have sent you a pm Nick.
Cheers
Dave.

[Askold]

I think the tab had to be more squre simply becuase the design would not fit if it was regular shapped.

P.S. Never liked that tab on the tunic from german militaria.

[kass]

P.S. Never liked that tab on the tunic from german militaria.

That tab is "badman" IMO

There is one hand embroidered E/sword tab in Estonian collection that has different opinions here. Good and bad. I do not know much about it and have no strong point of view (good or bad) cause lack of the info, but here are the pictures.

[Sturmmann]

here is a photo of the original 2. pattern dachau manufactured tab ...

[kass]

What about this (non German?) 2nd pattern? Also shown in Bender's book...
Again very square and very un-German looking... Not conclusively proven to be real...
but it's another example that makes the case that embroidered (early?)variations of the
2nd (final) pattern Estonian tab did exist prior to the Neuhammer barracks introduction
of the German (Dachau) made one...
Attached Images

This is just sketched (well I remembered these as such but it seems to be a photocopied image with really bad quality?) image that I believe have no origin from original piece. From the same series or should I say same way of stylization is the sketched(how I described it before) E/sword that reminded me the tab posted here from the starter of this thread. E with a flat sword.

And in Estonia there were no production of metal runes. They were produced in Latvia.