Estonian Collar Tab

[NickG]

[QUOTE=Sturmmann;3138263]
but the fact is that the backing material and the embroidery is not what you would expect from original 1. pattern tab.QUOTE]

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I was waiting for some reactions but my initial thoughts were also leading to this conclusion...
(1) strange material and (2) very skinny "E".
You can see variations in the 2nd pattern Estonian tab (Mailed arm) as these came from various sources (locally) but this 1 pattern German design
on the other hand is supposed to be pretty consistent in appearance, as its a German made version and was never popular with the Estonians...
who as far as I know never produced it locally, prefering the 2nd pattern which can be found in various "qualities" (Estonian made)!...

[Askold]

But what exactly is wrong with the posted tab? Just the embroidery? I am not an expert in tabs, but even identical Dahau tabs vary in embroidery - for example we get some Handschar tabs with tighter embroidery but we can also find some more loosely embroidered ones. Same thing regarding the texture. The tabs you posted all seem to have different textured black cloth. So which one is correct? We get this variation with other tabs as well. Perhaps I am wrong but I dont' see that many red flags.

P.S. How much do these Estonian tabs go for?

[NickG]

But what exactly is wrong with the posted tab? Just the embroidery? I am not an expert in tabs, but even identical Dahau tabs vary in embroidery - for example we get some Handschar tabs with tighter embroidery but we can also find some more loosely embroidered ones. Same thing regarding the texture. The tabs you posted all seem to have different textured black cloth. So which one is correct? We get this variation with other tabs as well. Perhaps I am wrong but I dont' see that many red flags.

P.S. How much do these Estonian tabs go for?

True Askold, good points, even German made foreign volunteer tabs can also vary in appearance...Dachau, non Dachau etc... Handschar is indeed a good example (scimitar sword varies swastika thickness varies between batches...but the Handschar tabs were issued for a longer period of time from I assume various manufacturers...
in comparison with this 1st pattern Estland tab, short lived or rather not widely used /not widely distributed, because it was not popular...
and eventually replaced by 2nd pattern (Estonian made) Mailed Arm designs which the Germans later adopted... making their version of that style for issuance.
Still the "E" is way too skinny to my liking! These things are a mine field!
It is my opinion only, not a final verdict... these are tricky pieces!!

[Askold]

But then we have the Kaminski tab that was never issued at all and we still get differences. However I do agree with you - the arm is slightly thinner and I would be extremely careful in dealing with anything from the Baltics.

[NickG]

But then we have the Kaminski tab that was never issued at all and we still get differences. However I do agree with you - the arm is slightly thinner and I would be extremely careful in dealing with anything from the Baltics.

Thats true Askold! Here's my version (obtained recently thanks to a fellow WAF member)

[kass]

Tom`s tab reminds me one picture of "sketched" (or something) 1` st pattern tab from one book that had also this kind of broad/flat sword. Ill try to remember the source.

[Sturmmann]

there are 3 factory made patterns of these estonian tabs - though the first one was unofficial but still widely used.

when I/45 arrived to tartu in 11. february 1944 then the city of tartu presented the first pattern which was manufactured in medical instruments factory in tartu. it was mailed arm with sword and "E" - made of thin metal and was meant to be attached to blank waffen-ss tab. it was not official but nevertheless it was widely used.

1. official pattern was the letter "E" and the sword which was presented in mid june 1944. it is said that it was very unpolular in 20. ss division but the fact is that it was very widely used and You can see it on many photos. this pattern of the tab was produced in dachau camp.

2. (and also the last) official pattern was the dachau manufactured mailed arm with sword surrounding the letter "E". it was introduced in october 1944 in neuhammer camp when 20. ss division was being reorganized (though there are few examples which were given to estonian kriegsberichter's in september 1944).

The tabs you posted all seem to have different textured black cloth.

maybe the photos are a bit crappy but i've seen all these tabs with my own two green eyes and i can tell You that the black cloth is identical on all three tabs i posted.

P.S. How much do these Estonian tabs go for?

i'm willing to pay 700€ for one in good condition.

i've been collecting 9 years now and i got my first tab about a week ago - so in estonia these tabs are very very rare and this 1. official pattern is the most common of the three factory made tabs.

[NickG]

1. official pattern was the letter "E" and the sword which was presented in mid june 1944. it is said that it was very unpolular in 20. ss division but the fact is that it was very widely used and You can see it on many photos. this pattern of the tab was produced in dachau camp.

True the official (first) pattern was distributed to the division initially but men prefered the SS flashes or otherwise the 2nd pattern, which at the time was still unofficial (embroidered "mailed arm+sword" just like the metal Tartu jewelry unofficial type) and these were (locally?) embroidered for them (I used to own one of those slightly larger than German made tabs!)
and later of course adopted by the Germans (German made) as the official pattern. (Used as unit vehicle stencil also)
Good info on the dates and you have a great web site with wonderful images!

[Ludwig]

his name is tammiksaar.



that is true.

but the fact is that the backing material and the embroidery is not what you would expect from original 1. pattern tab.

my advice for You is that there is no point of paying more than 20€ for this tab.

I visited him a couple of times years ago.
That´s really an impressive collection he´s got!!!
Please say hello to him and his girlfriend (who spoke really good Swedish!). We visited Nugiseks. He knows.

[kass]

and these were locally embroidered for them

There were no local embroidered insignias. Only metal ones.

[Sturmmann]

to nickg - the tab You refer to is also fake. i've seen it and i know which one you mean.

what kass said is correct - there were no embroidered collar tabs made in estonia for 20. ss division.

some soldiers made E with a sword from empty flare gun shell and i think that maybe kass could post a picture of one of these "trench made" tabs.

[D Davies]

Hi Nick Kass Sturmmann would this be the tab you are talking about.

[D Davies]

tab reverse

[Askold]

Fantastic tab David! I never seen the embroidery go through the backing before.

[PMan]

Tab

Hi Nick Kass Sturmmann would this be the tab you are talking about.

This tab appears to have an unterlagen, which would mean that it is hand embroidered.