W-SS Sturmscharfuhrer Tunic

[Fritz]

It's also important to know that Panzerjäger were usually equipped with many different types of PAK, that was the standard weapon for Panzerjäger-Kompanien attached to Infanterie/Grenadier-Regimenter. The Panzerjäger-Abteilungen often had inventar in the sense of Jagdpanzer IV, Stugs etc. but also very often some companies equiped with PAKs which were mainly towed by trucks from 1943 on. If one thinks of a 8,8cm PAK then that is only natural that you need a truck to tow that thing...no horse will do that, not to mention a men.

And that brings another question up...Would the driver of such a truck wear blue Waffenfarbe for transport or pink for Panzerjäger....Or white if he was attached to a grenadier-regiment's Panzerjägerkompanie....

Cheers

Fritz

[Fritz]

Thank you Fritz and Mike, I like these discussions a lot.

It was the same with the Panzerjäger-Abteilung from "Nederland", and I am sure with many other units. They were equipped with Sturmgeschütze, while the members wore red Waffenfarbe.

So, in fact, we have three colours for Panzerjäger units, pink, red and white. Now I understand why I am a little bit confused after all!

Cees

Stug crews wore red unless the Stugs were part of a Panzerjägerabteilung, then tehy were "supposed" to wear pink.

The period booklet "Panzer helfen Dir" tells the infantry man that "he will not be able to recognize the difference between Stugs that operate as Stugs and those that operate as Panzerjäger" in other words "he should not worry as they will both help him once they are there"...WOW!

Cheers

Fritz

[John Pic]

If my tunic was seen in a Black and white photo one could never tell what color the piping was.Or the tunic for that matter.

[Fritz]

If my tunic was seen in a Black and white photo one could never tell what color the piping was.Or the tunic for that matter.

NCOs and officers are hard to identify, EM are easier to determine, at least white is quite easy to recognize when compaired to black and red.


Cheers

Fritz

[Mike C]

I generally look for studio shots of enlisted personnel - in my opinion, the white is easily discernable. Certainly, in one of the two photos I referenced, I think the white is without question.

Mike

[John P. Moore]

Regulations concerning Waffenfarbe did not really matter in reality, regardless of what some collectors may want to believe. Some time back on another forum there was a discussion about any Waffenfarbe but white being disallowed on visor caps around 1941. I produced a number of eye-witnesses from among my W-SS veteran contacts who attested to seeing assorted colors, besides white, being worn up to the end of the war on visors. Don't forget that in many infantry regiments a Flak company existed and I believe that their Waffenfarbe was red!

John

[C. Kleijn]

That's so true, John. Here is a photo from SS-Sanitäts-Abteilung 5, late 1944.

I know a Dutch veteran from SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 11 and later 54, who wanted to purchase a red-piped visor cap while on leave in Holland, somewhere in 1944. Unfortunately, the shop he went to, didn't have any caps with red Waffenfarbe, so he had to buy one with white piping. He still has this cap.

Cees

[TonyS]

Hi John,

Here is the text you referred to from the other forum. I hope you don't mind me posting it. It obviously has a lot of relevance to the continuing discussions on color piped visors as well:

POSTED BY JOHN MOORE: -

"Since none of the Veteran members have yet commented, here is a reply back from a former Waffen-SS member who was attending signal officer school when the war ended. Previously he had been a member of the "Prinz Eugen" mountain division from 1942 - Dec. 1944.

" Your question about the "piping" colours. While still at the PE (mid-December 1944), the "old pipings" were worn (e.g. red for artillery, yellow for Nachrichten, black for pioneers, white for infantry, including the Jäger. We had heard rumours about "standardization", but nothing in fact happened (remember, when I mentioned that, in the course of the summer of 1944, all Knobel-becher worn by die Gebirgstruppen had to be given up, because they were in short supply at the other units (with a lot of manpower wasted just checking if some pairs had been hidden). Neither was there any difference in Leitmeritz: I recall the officers wearing - on the several official occasions - the standard-issue visor hats, with the appropriate yellow piping. But amongst the Junker-candidates and Junkers, Mützen and Schirmmützen with other piping-colours were worn, mainly white - an indication that candidates from other Truppenteile were being sent for training as Nachrichtenoffiziere. I believe that the recently outpouring of hats with yellow piping may be directly linked, not to present-day massive productions of fakes, but to the fact that the survival chances of officers and men serving in the (divisional) Nachrichtenabteilungen (as against being abkommandiert to, say, the infantry or to the Panzertruppen) were significantly higher (as was the preservation of their uniforms, etc.). I even recall seeing, in October 1944, a huge high-school building in Kragujevac, that had been converted into a major uniform-supply centre and was abandoned just a few days before we retreated from the Red Army onslaught. For a little while I was holding in my hands a brand new, real-silver-gray coloured tunic, with the insignia of a captain and with black piping, and was tempted to take it with me. Then several blasts caused by a massive landing of Stalin-Orgel rockets woke me up, inducing me and my two Kameraden, to leave as fast as our legs were able to carry us. It never occurred to me that putting a match to all that clothing would have been a patriotic thing to do (or would it?)."

[Bobwirtz]

Mike C brings up a good point about the extra silver strap... is it for an officer candidate. Generally speaking the SS-Sturmscharfuhrer rank was a dead-end rank. The primary rank for officer candidates was SS-Unterscharfuhrer. They wanted experienced young men to go to the schools and become officers. This may be a case of somebody not doing their homework when PUTTING this together... history has a way of tripping up people.

Bob

[TonyS]

Bob - I always thought that too. But would that preclude them becoming an officer candidate? I would not have thought so (although I still agree the tunic is put together).

However, never having been in the military, maybe someone who has, can clarify that further and satisfy my curiosity.

Was the highest NCO rank regarded as:

1. A dead end position for someone who was capable, but not suitable for some reason to be an officer, or did not want to be an officer?

2. A well respected position with many officers duties?

3. A rank for someone who advanced in promotion quickly and could not be pulled out for officer training for some reason?

4. None or all of the above?

[John Pic]

Tony thank you for providing the quote from John's Posting. This illuminates quite clearly for me that uniforms could be and were salvaged for later usage.One of my beliefs expressed often on the forums but often assaulted by the textbook warriors.

To bad the discussion here started with a hoaky tunic otherwise its been an interesting exploration of Waffenfarbe usage.

[Bobwirtz]

Tony,

I think that this rank was for the 'professional NCO', an older, experienced man who was probably more valuable in his current position. For officers, services always want young men they can forge. Sending an old salt to officer candidate school wouldn't work because this guy is already molded in his way and far more experienced than his teachers. You need those YOUNG officers to take orders and lead, but you need that seasoned NCO to keep them under control, otherwise the entire platoon, unit, etc. gets wiped out. Take for example the movie WE WERE SOLDIERS... after they land and start spreading out, that one officer starts chasing that scout and his entire unit is surrounded and almost wiped out. His NCO would have been better off shooting his officer rather than having him lead the entire unit into an ambush. But we're getting off subject. So anyway, your primary ranks for eligibility for officer candidate school was SS-Unterscharfuhrer, although SS-Rottenfuhrer could be accepted as well. You had to be enlisted for 18 months before qualifying. That was one of the unique things about the Waffen-SS: nobody joined as an officer (well, the early guys did). You enlisted and served 18 months as an enlisted man and then if qualified attended officer candidate school and became an officer. The Waffen-SS wanted it's officers to experience what it was like to be an enlisted man before becoming an officer --- they didn't believe in the class system of the Army.

Bob

[Olli Wikberg]

The discussion on Waffenfarbe questions has been very interesting. I would like bring out a Finnish perspective. I've seen and handled quite a lot of material related to the Finnish volunteers (SS-Wiking). At least in Wiking (1941-1943) the men used what they were issued with or could find. There were of course regulations but in war time these could not always be followed. Regarding the shoulder boards the correct rank was the primary question. I've seen a lot of Heer officer's boards worn by Finns in Wiking as SS type was not available. And if correct Waffenfarbe was not available, then the person used what was available. I personally have a orange piped other ranks Schirmmütze which was obtained and worn by a volunteer in Panzerjägers. He simply couldn't find a pink one and had to buy a orange one instead. I'm now very happy he did that . In the Finnish volunteer Btl. (infantry unit) some soldiers are known to have worn piped shoulder straps. Medics in infantry companies for example used blue piped straps. Nowadays it is too easy (and false) to rely on textbooks only.

Olli

[Mike C]

The rank of sturmscharfuhrer was (to my mind) the pinnicle for enlisted ranks - as opposed to a way station for someone en route to the officer corps. This being said, Angolia's Cloth SS book has a named example of a sturmscharfuhrer board - with the DOUBLE tresse which was used to signify an officer candidate. A SINGLE strip of tresse was used to denote a NCO candidate - which clearly does not fit here. Like Bob, I think someone may have tripped up....

We also have to be careful to differentiate in the W-SS system (which was very similar to the Heer) between professional NCOs who wore collar tresse with the junkers who wore NCO rank (collar tabs, which were often piped with silver piping, and boards) but NO tresse. For example, the W-SS junker wore unterscharfuhrer rank; the oberjunker wore scharfuhrer rank; the standartenjunker wore oberscharfuhrer rank and the standartenoberjunker wore hauptscharfuhrer rank - BUT NO COLLAR TRESSE. These two groups are different and should not be confused.

Now getting back to this tunic - you have tresse on the collar (i.e. a professional NCO and not a junker) with a single strip of tresse (an NCO candidate)... This is a hard one to explain.

One last point - the German forces did (and still do) make significant use of their NCO corps to command troops and platoons. It was very common to have hauptscharfuhrers (and other NCOs) commanding platoons in combat - with companies often reduced to one or two officers only.

Mike

[TonyS]

Thanks Bob and Mike for the explanation.