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**Mike C** · 03-30-2008, 08:14 PM

Fritz,

Perhaps the key is the term infanterie as used in descriptions such as schwere Infanteriekompanie, schweres infanterie geschutz 33 or infanterie geschutz 37. This would suggest to me (at least) the use of white waffenfarbe...

I just glanced at Gottlieb Bidermann's excellent memoir of his service on the eastern front ("In Deadly Combat") and it appears, from at least one picture, that he was wearing white waffenfarbe as a member of the 14th Panzerjaeger Kompany of the 436 Infantry regiment, 132 Infantry Division.

Mike

**Fritz** · 03-31-2008, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by Mike C View Post

Fritz,

Perhaps the key is the term infanterie as used in descriptions such as schwere Infanteriekompanie, schweres infanterie geschutz 33 or infanterie geschutz 37. This would suggest to me (at least) the use of white waffenfarbe...

Hi Mike,
yes, exactly my thoughts as well.

I have checked my reference material for the 12th SS and it suggests that all men of the two grenadier regiments wore white waffenfarbe, incl. those of the regiment's light engineers and infantry gun (150mm) companies. Only the division's "Abteilungen", battalions and other regiments had different Waffenfarbe, anyone within the "Panzergrenadier-Regimenter" wore white Waffenfarbe.

Cheers

Fritz

**Mike C** · 03-31-2008, 08:12 AM

Hi Fritz,

My understanding as well - just as all members of the division stab should have worn infantry while. I wonder if those men selected for the regimental infantry geschuitz and pioneer companies received training from formal W-SS/Heer artillery and pioneers schools? My sense is that they did not - see for example the statement by Paul Kamberger (Meyer's history of the HJ Division, p. 4) or Erhard Kinscher's statement in Williamson's "Loyalty is my Honour". In these two case, selection for positions (in these cases 20mm anti-aircraft gunner and dispatch rider) was arbitrary and subsequent training was done at the division's training establishments. Perhaps this was unique to the 12 SS-Panzer-Division...

Mike

**C. Kleijn** · 03-31-2008, 08:42 AM

Hello all,

I know a Dutch volunteer from the 4./48. This was a Schwere Kompanie with a L.I.G.-Zug, a PAK-Zug, &c. He told me that the members of these platoons wore red Waffenbarbe, while they were serving in a regular SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment. The infantry platoons had white Waffenfarbe.

It is my understanding that members of either a regimental pioneer company or a Pionierzug in a regimental Stabskompanie should get their training at a pioneer school, in this case in Dresden. I guess this is also counting for a L.I.G.-Kompanie or -Zug, and other units with either heavy weapons or special tasks. There were, of course, exceptions to this rule, as other members correctly stated.

Hope this helps a bit!

Cees

**Mike C** · 03-31-2008, 08:48 AM

Thanks Cees,

Perhaps we need to draw on the help of our friends collecting W-SS soldbuchs. I remember having had a Frundsberg soldbuch for an anti-aircraft gunner - but can't remember if he went to a Flak training and replacement unit... Would be interesting to see where their training was conducted.

Mike

**C. Kleijn** · 03-31-2008, 08:56 AM

You are most welcome Mike. Here is a page from a Soldbuch from a Danish volunteer who served in the 16./24. This was a pioneer company. As you can see on this page, he got his training in the SS-Pionier-Ausbildungs-und-Ersatz-Bataillon in Dresden.

I took the picture from another forum. If the owner wants to have this page removed from this thread, just let me know.

Cees

Attached Files

waf_soldbuch5.jpg (75.1 KB, 466 views)

**Sonny** · 03-31-2008, 09:02 AM

waffenfarbe

Hi Fritz, what reference material for the 12th SS did you check that delianeated waffenfarbe by regiment, I'd like to buy that book.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't flak wear red. Somehow I can't picture pioneer wearing white instead of black, lastly Yerger's softcover on Weidinger has the order of battle of Der Fueher on Dec'44 with the III Battalion as armoured battalion with half tracked vehicles(schutzenpanzerwagon).
I'm sure Craig's tunic is bogus for other reasons as mentioned in previous posts, but all white for the entire regiment just does not sound right to me. Sonny

**C. Kleijn** · 03-31-2008, 09:09 AM

This page comes from a Dutch volunteer's Soldbuch. As you can see, he was trained in SS-Infanterie-Geschütz-Ausbildungs-und-Ersatz-Bataillon 1 in Breslau-Lissa. This unit was later incorporated in SS-Festungs-Regiment Besslein, also known as Kampfgruppe Besslein.

Cees

Attached Files

waf_soldbuch6a.jpg (139.5 KB, 418 views)

**C. Kleijn** · 03-31-2008, 09:13 AM

Here is another one from the 49th regiment. The owner went to a Flak training and replacement unit.

Cees

Attached Files

waf_soldbuch7.jpg (77.7 KB, 417 views)

**Fritz** · 03-31-2008, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by Sonny View Post

Hi Fritz, what reference material for the 12th SS did you check that delianeated waffenfarbe by regiment, I'd like to buy that book.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't flak wear red. Somehow I can't picture pioneer wearing white instead of black, lastly Yerger's softcover on Weidinger has the order of battle of Der Fueher on Dec'44 with the III Battalion as armoured battalion with half tracked vehicles(schutzenpanzerwagon).
I'm sure Craig's tunic is bogus for other reasons as mentioned in previous posts, but all white for the entire regiment just does not sound right to me. Sonny

Hi Sonny,
the book's title is "6 June 1944, Soldiers In Normandy", published by Histoire & Collections. ISBN: 2908182327, it includes a small chapter about the 12th ss.

As for the Flak units, the Flak companies attached to the Grenadier-Regimenter wore white, the members of the division's Flak-Abteilung wore "scarlet".

Same with the pioneers, those that were members of the "Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon" wore black, those of the companies attached to the grenadier regiments wore white.

Cheers

Fritz

**Fritz** · 03-31-2008, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by Mike C View Post

Hi Fritz,

My understanding as well - just as all members of the division stab should have worn infantry while. I wonder if those men selected for the regimental infantry geschuitz and pioneer companies received training from formal W-SS/Heer artillery and pioneers schools? My sense is that they did not - see for example the statement by Paul Kamberger (Meyer's history of the HJ Division, p. 4) or Erhard Kinscher's statement in Williamson's "Loyalty is my Honour". In these two case, selection for positions (in these cases 20mm anti-aircraft gunner and dispatch rider) was arbitrary and subsequent training was done at the division's training establishments. Perhaps this was unique to the 12 SS-Panzer-Division...

Mike

Photomaterial in the book "12. SS-Panzer-Division" by Georges Bernage and Hubert Meyer give me that idea as well. However, I have no reason to doubt what Cees says, so perhaps it was possible both ways...?

Cheers

Fritz

**C. Kleijn** · 03-31-2008, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by Fritz View Post

As for the Flak units, the Flak companies attached to the Grenadier-Regimenter wore white, the members of the division's Flak-Abteilung wore "scarlet".

Same with the pioneers, those that were members of the "Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon" wore black, those of the companies attached to the grenadier regiments wore white.

Hi Fritz,

I have seen photos of Pionier-Kompanien where the members wore black Waffenfarbe. Veterans have told me about red Waffenfarbe for heavy platoons in their infantry unit, like I have mentioned above. On the other hand, Gerardus Mooyman, the Dutch RK-Träger who served in the Panzerjäger-Kompanie of the Freiw. Legion Niederlande, wore white Waffenfarbe, as can be seen on many photos.

I really wonder what the general rule was. Maybe everybody in a Panzergrenadier-Regiment had to wear white Waffenfarbe, with exceptions to this rule?

Interesting discussion!

Cees

**Fritz** · 03-31-2008, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by C. Kleijn View Post

Hi Fritz,

I have seen photos of Pionier-Kompanien where the members wore black Waffenfarbe. Veterans have told me about red Waffenfarbe for heavy platoons in their infantry unit, like I have mentioned above. On the other hand, Gerardus Mooyman, the Dutch RK-Träger who served in the Panzerjäger-Kompanie of the Freiw. Legion Niederlande, wore white Waffenfarbe, as can be seen on many photos.

I really wonder what the general rule was. Maybe everybody in a Panzergrenadier-Regiment had to wear white Waffenfarbe, with exceptions to this rule?

Interesting discussion!

Cees

Hi Cees,
yes, in the book I have mentioned the authors say that the official color for any member of an infantry or grenadier regiment was white. The division's Abteilungen were supposed to wear the waffenfarbe that would represent their branch (black for pioneers, scarlet for flak etc.). I also didn't know that before. I always thought pioneers wore black in any case, but apparently they didn't.

Cheers

Fritz

**Fritz** · 03-31-2008, 10:35 AM

Here is a part of the list.

The source is the book:

"6 June 1944, Soldiers In Normandy"
published by Histoire & Collections
ISBN: 2908182327

Attached Files

HJcolors.JPG (135.0 KB, 388 views)

**John Pic** · 03-31-2008, 11:03 AM

What is the books source how did the author arrive at this conclusion? I would look into that before drawing conclusions on Waffenfarbe colors.
There are photos of Men in the Das Reich Stug battalion wearing red and the "Der Fuhrer" cuff title.

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