W-SS Sturmscharfuhrer Tunic

[Mike C]

With absolutely no desire to cast any reflection on the integrity of the site referenced, I have just looked at the W-SS Deutschland Sturmscharfuhrer tunic just listed with Craig Gottlieb. Is it me, or does this tunic simply not ring true?

Let me begin with the juxtaposition of artillery boards with Latin "D" cyphers and the cufftitle. The 3d W-SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment "Deutschland" did not have any artillery integral to this regiment - unlike, for example, the 4th W-SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment "Der Fuhrer" which did have six SdKfz 138/1 "Grille" assigned to it. So - no Deutschland NCO serving with that regiment could or should have worn red waffenfarbe. (As an aside, no soldier serving in a W-SS panzergrenadier regiment should have worn any waffenfarbe other than infantry white but I acept the possibility that soldiers serving in different roles such as artillery, pioneer or reconnaissance might have worn those waffenfarbes).

So...was this a VERY senior infantry NCO transferred to an artillery organization? I find this hard to believe - and in any case, he would have worn the insignia of the corps or divisional artillery of his new unit. This would have covered every division from 1 to 17 as they all had distinctive insignia (cufftitles: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 16, 17; gebirgsjaeger insignia: 6, 7; foreign shields 13, 14, 15) - and a lot of the subsequent divisions also had identifying insignia.

Other concerns - the boards themselves are bizarre. Sturmscharfuhrer insignia (the most senior NCO rank) with one additional tresse strip which signifies an NCO candidate? Two strips would signifiy an officer candidate (an example of such is in Angolia's "Cloth Insignia" - a unique and questionable example, in my opinion) but these boards still only have that single strip.

Finally - from the pictures provided - we see no badge loops or ribbon bar loops or button ribbons...for the highest senior NCO from a premier W-SS regiment?

What am I missing here?

Mike

[Francesco]

What am I missing here?

The sleeve eagle!!..............the eagle is a bad one.

[phild]

I think that your analysis is pretty sound and that is the way that I start looking at any thunic, that is "does it make sense?".

One point that you wrote and I'm not sure if you don't understand or I don't understand your statement is regarding that the branch piping worn within an Infantry (or Pzgrd) regiment. There were of course many combat support and service suppot type troops and officers who were not infantry branch who were assigned at the regimental and even lower level units of those regiments.

Medical, signal and supply are three other branches who I know were assigned at that level and lower in every case for a regiment, but often these branches would could serve at higher levels or thier own units like a Signal Bn.

Generally branches whose personnel may have been attached temporary or during operations only would not have any distinctions from those regiments.

These would include most every branch other then the 3 that I named.

[richardtedor]

ss sturmscharfuhrer tunic

Dear Mike,
The tunic should not be dismissed because of inconsistencies with the shoulder boards. Were the NCO transferred to the artillery while remaining within the "Reich" division, he might have decided to retain the "Deutschland" cuff title to reflect previous service with this regiment. The "D" device could then have been transferred to the new boards. The third volume of Michael Beaver's study of SS uniforms depicts on page 755 a NCO panzer wrapper (with provenance) displaying a "Germania" cuff title and corresponding "G" metal shoulder board cypher. He was probably serving in panzer regt. 5 of the "Wiking" division but wished to advertise earlier service in "Germania."
The Heimdahl book "Gotz von Berlichingen" depicts on page 61 a NCO wearing the "SS-N" collar patch from the much earlier "Standarte Nurnberg". There is a scene in a 1944 German Normandy front newsreel (in the video "Fortress Europe" released by International Historic Films) showing another sergeant from "Gotz" wearing a "SS-1" collar tab from the "Deutschland" regiment as well... such numbered patches were phased out years earlier.
The lack of badge loops could indicate that the NCO was in administration, maintenance, or supply. Every combat formation had support services and promoted qualified soldiers to fill necessary supervisory positions based on their ability to perform the job at hand and not on valor displayed in combat.
I suppose that were I considering paying more for a tunic than the Air Force does for a screwdriver I would want it to be right as rain just as you do, but the boards on Mr. Gottlieb's tunic should not necessarily disqualify it.

[Mike C]

Hi Phild,

Personnel seconded or attached for a limited period of time should have retained their waffenfarbe...but personnel permanently posted should (by regulation as I understand it) have worn the waffenfarbe of the regiment. Perhaps the key distinction is their background training - Meyer made a company of young HJ PG recruits his Regiment's reconnaissance company - but I doubt they wore cavary waffenfarbe (but perhaps his radio truppe personnel did). Now...I can't image an artillery sturmscharfuhrer attached to the Deutschland (nor for that matter an infantry "D" sturmscharfuhrer sent to an artillery unit).

Simply put, I can't imagine a logical combination or artillery waffenfarbe and "D" insignia for an NCO of the rank.

Mike

[Mike C]

Dear Richard,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I have discussed the famed Germania wrapper with numerous folk - and would only note the provenance back only to the 1947 ('48?) photo. So.. is this an authentic piece or a post-war [bells and whistles - (wrapper, tabs, TB badge, spiess double tresse, et)] souvenir for an occupation GI?] Certainly, it flies in the face of logic and regulation.

In general, I have yet to meet any soldier - who when posted to a new unit - would refuse to wear the unit insignia of his new assignment ...especially at the rank of a RSM/1st Sgt. Why would this sturmscharfuhrer not simply put up the Wiking cufftitle?

And what about that strip of tresse?

Mike

[Hasse.M]

Compare the condition of the ct and arm eagle...

The pips looks really bad to me. Are they ground dug or something?

Looks like a bad put together tunic to me.

[besslein]

Compare the condition of the ct and arm eagle...

The pips looks really bad to me. Are they ground dug or something?

Looks like a bad put together tunic to me.

hey we all know that Craig is top dealer,no chance here for hes mistake

[Sayle F]

Sleeve Eagle

According to the pinned SS fake insignia thread that eagle is bad. I was always on the fence about them as I turned one up out of the woods still sewn to a piece of black panzer wrap.

[John Pic]

A member of this forum has the tunic of a Deutschland Artillery Obersturmfuhrer that was captured by a Chaplain of the 82nd Airborne division during the Normandy invasion. They certainly had an Artillery unit attached. I have been aware of the tunics existence since the 1980s and it is Pictured in Beavers volume1.

Now for the tunic. Francesco I have heard of these eagles being fake but no one has said why or where they come from, im with Kevin Im on the same fence about them. I cant judge the pips without seeing them up close they may be glass pips which were quite crude sometimes.The tunic basically looks ok but Im put off by the tailoring flaws in the skirt lining.

I should add that the rank is extremely high for a Regimental Artillery unit NCO so whoever it was probably wouldve served at the Divisional level and not with the Deutschland Regiment itself but probably would be a former unit member. Just speculating because the rank leaves lots of room for doubt regarding authenticity.

[phild]

Hi Phild,

Personnel seconded or attached for a limited period of time should have retained their waffenfarbe...but personnel permanently posted should (by regulation as I understand it) have worn the waffenfarbe of the regiment. Mike

Mike, I can tell you as a fact that a regiment had no single waffenfarbe....that (branch color) was reserved to mark the branch of arms that a soldier/officer was trained in and qualified. A soldier from ANY branch who was assigned to a regiment (pz,in, art any type) would wear thier own branch color along with any distinctions from that regiment like a title or cypher.

Those are facts that I don't see how anyone could dispute. The rub comes in when we start trying to figure out what branches would have likely been actually assigned to a given regiment and which ones were temp attachments or operational control type attachments.

It gets more hairy when we realize that the organizations changed authorized components several times during the war so what was a part of a regiment one day was not always so the next based on the re-organization and that not all branch waffenfarbe mean exactly one thing. This last coment considers for example that Flak, forward observation and some ordnance jobs were all Art. Red waffenfarbe....and for sure FOs were attached and possibly assigned down to Inf. regiments....those FOs would have always worn red waffenfarbe.

[John P. Moore]

Every infantry regiment or Panzergrenadier Rgt. had a Infantrie Geschütz company organic to the regiment throughout the war. It was usually numbered as the 13th company. This company was staffed by both officers and enlisted personnel from the artillery specialty and they wore red Waffenfarbe. The same thing went for the men assigned to the regimental Pionier (engineer) company who would have worn black Waffenfarbe.

John

[Bobwirtz]

If the soldier was in the Deutschland Regiment and then moved to Das Reich, he would be required by regulations to change cuffbands. If he moved to say the Handschar Division, a unit without a cuffband, then he could retain his Deutschland cuffband and shoulder strap/board insignia.

Bob

[TonyS]

A member of this forum has the tunic of a Deutschland Artillery Obersturmfuhrer that was captured by a Chaplain of the 82nd Airborne division during the Normandy invasion. They certainly had an Artillery unit attached. I have been aware of the tunics existence since the 1980s and it is Pictured in Beavers volume1.

Now for the tunic. Francesco I have heard of these eagles being fake but no one has said why or where they come from, im with Kevin Im on the same fence about them. I cant judge the pips without seeing them up close they may be glass pips which were quite crude sometimes.The tunic basically looks ok but Im put off by the tailoring flaws in the skirt lining.

I should add that the rank is extremely high for a Regimental Artillery unit NCO so whoever it was probably wouldve served at the Divisional level and not with the Deutschland Regiment itself but probably would be a former unit member. Just speculating because the rank leaves lots of room for doubt regarding authenticity.

John I think you could be right about the pips - they do look like the glass type.

It does appear to have at least some parts that would give me doubt. As Hasse.M pointed out, the wear on the "maybe fake" eagle does not seem right - or maybe its the lack of wear on the cufftitle is not right.

For $16k I'll let others take a risk on it. And WTF - the same price on the restored SS officers tunic group.................

[Ian Hulley]

http://www.craiggottlieb.com/data/in...rtillery+Tunic

Anyone care to comment on the stretched diamond appearance of all the NCO braid, I always associate that (rightly or wrongly) with DDR ? Also no belt support ramps and the highest NCO rank in the artillery attachment ... would he have been 'Der Speiss' or is that at Regimental level ? Questionable eagle and pips ... I don't know whether these are questions or observations ... but they don't sit well with a tunic of that alleged value.

Ian.