Originally posted by kammo man
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Ill take it outside tomorrow and look again -
Tom ,Originally posted by Palmenmuster View Post
The HBT are real.
The Norwegian are real.
The Pinks are not.
owenComment
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the 3 number SS manufacturer code also usually disappears from light washing especially if it a water soluble ink was used which many were. Same with the makers markings in some LAGO made tropical caps but not the size marking which was from a permanent-fixed type ink,Originally posted by kammo man View Post
I think there is every chance nutmeg's may have been washed at least once lightly but then again, may be his smock and some "Birch" smocks were not washed at all ???
ChrisComment
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Hey Bob ,Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post
A true collector gets 3 of something !
You need to pick another at next months SOS.
I will help you find one........of do you still want that Water pattern mountain jacket?
owenComment
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Originally posted by blamers View Post
Answer via in-depth research;
"When analyzing a brick brown ("Birch") smock, it highlights the exquisite camouflage pattern that was printed on it. The material is a strong type of cotton canvas, called "Doek" in Dutch (cotton duck) and inside pockets is made from herringbone twill HBT.
By applying a little science to the mystery, just as there has been interesting evidence favoring the authenticity of brick brown smock. Comparative data on the thickness or density compared to other smocks considered authentic. Let's see:
Smock M-40 in good condition: 0.39 mm.
Smock M-40 used: 0.39 mm.
Smock M-40 almost new: 0.39 mm.
Smock M-42 almost new: 0.40 mm.
Smock M-42 in good condition: 0.40 mm.
Brown brick Smock M-42 in good condition: 0.40 mm.
Brown brick Smock M-42 in poor condition: 0.40 mm.
Obviously, brick brown fabric smock has broadly the same density as the smocks M-40 and M-42. While this is not proof, the fact remains that a significant fact in its favor.
Moreover, when considering the fabric with a microscope and when compared with other samples doek of the time, you can see some differences between each other. However, between different samples of fabric made 100% in Germany, many differences were also observed, which clearly shows that the differences identified are not evidence of lack of authenticity. In fact, it is almost impossible for equipment manufacturing in Germany during the war produce a fabric identical to one made in a European country under German influence, either in 1938 or 1943. Even there testimony from experts who observed brick detail material brown smock in 1981, which tends to indicate that in 1981 the fabric looked and perceived very old. A part made in the era of 1970, for example, can not match that appearance.
Another detail that emerges from the microscopic analysis of the fabric is its utilitarian nature and somewhat raw, consisting of a standardized tissue with minimal finishing, frequently observed in military clothing of the time. Of note it is the way the reinforced holes in the groove of the neck and the reinforcement line perpendicular to the ends of each seam and tension point smock were sewn. It is simply an extraordinary job.
Finally, to thoroughly examine the thread and stitching the smock, and compare them with sewing thread and other original uniforms of the time, the obvious fact that brick brown smocks are pre 1945 manufacturing.
This forces us to confront head-on the theory of counterfeiting with specific information on the construction and detail of brick brown smocks. If we give credence to the conventional explanation that are mere copies of original pieces, we would have to accept the following:
These smocks came to Austria in lots of well-constructed pieces, such as smuggling, from a border with the communist bloc ... after considerable investment to enable a printing plant fabric, threads get pre 1945 elastic materials, buttons, dyes, , antique sewing machines, etc ... after all the work of cutting have been carried out, hand sewing, assembling, etc ... after the aging process artificially parts, exposing them to rodents and after adding moth ... "false" post-war in pockets, no one would understand or accept not until 10 years later ... after washing and passing contraband across a border of the Cold War at the risk of arrest and criminal prosecution prints ... down the road to sell at a loss to perhaps $ 50 per smock ...
It does not take a genius to conclude that such a scenario is absurd and improbable ..! "
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 12-15-2015, 02:59 PM.Comment
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Originally posted by blamers View Post
Answer via in-depth study of material and references on the subject;
"1. "The material HBT-twill and herringbone cotton duck doek the smock or brown brick is different from other types of smocks"
The reality of it is that in all countries of the world were versions of HBT and cotton duck during the decades of 1930 and 1940. In fact, much has been written and discussed the seizure of the Italians materials for use WSS to Late in the war, but not much is said about the use of seized or manufactured in more than 15 countries occupied by Germany materials. What this means is that to clarify the controversy should not be determining the differences in materials, because, as said, there are differences between the type and quality of material they are made many of the smocks universally accepted as original. That is, differences in patterns, materials and colors in isolation are not sufficient grounds to refute.
You can stipulate that the material is not identical brick smocks other SS smocks. However, it should not exist controversy between a smock made in 1938, whatever, and one made in 1940, there are also differences. Similarly a smock made in 1940 is different to one created in 1942 or 1943. Some suggest that these copies were commissioned at a textile factory in an occupied country, which would explain the difference in materials. If this is the case, it would be absurd to expect the brick smocks exhibit the same characteristics and smocks materials made in Germany. In fact, we do not know any German uniform made in an occupied country that is exactly identical to its counterpart made in Germany. It is common to find differences in the texture of the wool linings, colors and other details, and this does not imply that they are false.
It is important to note that at certain times, the SS had great difficulty in getting the quantity and quality needed doek or cotton duck fabric to meet their needs. Andrew Mollo discusses this and other researchers-authors-scholars. In the same vein, it is known that the Germans used widely, though unofficially, doek seized materials or cotton duck, which was of lower quality compared to the similar fabric of German origin. It is not difficult to imagine a situation in which the SS came across with, say, 5.000 meters of cotton fabric at a factory in Poland or Czechoslovakia, and decided to use it. It is also important to remember that at that time there were many variations of HBT in the geographic area of German influence, it was cheap and easy to obtain material. What it would be unreasonable to think that the SS is sent HBT rolls its own mills to foreign countries located hundreds of miles away, for use in contract factories.
Another argument in favor and explain the variations in the material is brick brown smock that existed in Norway during the war the SS Bekleidungswerk Nord, located in Oslo, manufacturer of all kinds of uniforms and caps of the SS. Although unknown to most collectors, a company called WC Møller in Drammen, oakleaf manufactured parkas with hoods and lining sheepskin. The parkas were created for the 4. SS Politikompani in 1944. The fabric used in these parkas oakleaf oakleaf standard German differs in texture, as in the present case. After the war, the robe was used by the National Guard of Norway. This case clearly illustrates the diversity of materials used by the SS for your clothes during WWII. Similarly, the manufacture and use of parkas SS Italian camouflage is another example of official use of foreign cloth and evidenced by the Waffen SS.
In short, the documented differences in doek or cotton duck fabric used in these smocks are not significantly higher than those found in other such smocks of the Waffen SS. It has been shown that there are real differences in quality, composition and even the construction of the German uniforms in cotton duck, including WSS. Some types are lighter, others have a higher content of rayon and others are thicker texture. A. Mollo has documented that the SS faced a growing crisis of expansion to obtain enough cotton duck fabric between 1942-1943. It is not hard to imagine that the SS had to seize material from other countries occupied by Germany because of this pressure. A number of other items were created and used in this way.
Authors of the caliber of A. Mollo and M. Beaver have written that in 1942 the SS was unable to meet demand for the supply of smocks for their divisions because of the shortage of doek fabric. This deficiency was combined with the fact that in mid-1942 the size of the Waffen SS tripled, so there arose the need to equip about 8 divisions at the end of 1943. The SS-Obergruppenführer Oswald Pohl himself, Head of the SS -Wirtschafts-Verwaltungshauptamt or the Administrative Department of the SS in charge of finance, projects and supplied the Allgemeine SS, recommended and insisted that the SS had to use materials other than doek if they aspired to equip combat troops smocks. The SS had enough manpower, the problem was the shortage of raw material and to some extent industrial capacity. This data is well documented. Among the alternatives to solve the problem mentioned HBT using cotton, among others. Thus, the administration that supplied the WSS used not only the facilities in occupied countries to increase their production capabilities, but also used materials available in distant foreign countries according to their needs.
This forces us to consider that the fabric of a brick brown smock is viable as material made and used before May 1945. When compared with zelt fabric, which varied during the war, it is clear that Zeltbahn fabric is stronger, however, is undeniably smock material is so good and strong as the fabrics used for smocks Heer and winter clothes for the SS. An important factor is that apparently the brick material brown smocks was available, at a time of shortage.
A very interesting fact is that these patterns of camouflage smocks were printed using a roll printing process, which is an expensive, it requires a significant facilities and usually need industrial machines. The manufacturer of these parts, therefore, had to invest considerable sums of money on materials, dyeing, printing patterns, sewing machines, double needle, distribution mechanisms, and other areas of the process. Chances are that the manufacture of these pieces will be held under state-military supervision. In that sense, most of these smocks clearly show a stitching yarn type different thread used for manufacturing the pocket flaps, which in turn is different to the thread used to attach the flaps to the body of the piece. All this process is characteristic of an industrial environment to the extent that the assembly of the garment is held in different workstations. There are documented cases of prisoners of the concentration camp in Ravensbruck that reveal the establishment of production quotas for each workstation testimonies. A prisoner usually started work at the station requiring less skill, such as sewing flaps, and there could eventually be transferred to other stations that required more skill because of its complexity.
There are several logical excenarios that may explain the above and as mentioned variants. And the most logical presumed, as said before, that were manufactured under contract in a facility outside Germany in the Reich. If this is the case, it would also be explained by the level of detail in its construction. Clearly, if these items were created by replicators, down the road they could not recoup their investment, let alone make a profit, given the fact that copies were sold at less than $ 100.00 each in 1980 to certain wholesalers in Germany and perhaps at a much lower price.
This batch of smocks clearly was not manufactured in the German facilitates or facility that traditionally produced in mass for WSS. Nor they were created with material that would have been as surplus production. This fabric was printed specifically for this type of smock.
Conclusion: the difference in building materials smock brick can not be the only reason to classify it as a post-1945 piece.
2. "brick brown smocks are not original because the fabric is not the same waterproof capacity of other types of smocks."
It has been said that the materials brick brown smock had never been used by the WSS for combat clothing, supposedly because their ability to repel water is lower than other smocks. However, this argument collapses when we noticed that during this same time period the SS smocks used exclusively manufactured HBT due to the shortage in doek fabric, material that has no waterproof property.
To this must be added that the smocks, by their nature, are not necessarily better due to its ability to repel water, unlike zelt. In fact, even if he were given a waterproof smock treatment, if it is subjected to a wet environment, it will not protect the wearer from the rain by 100%. On the other hand, if too heavy a material is used and adjusted to make it waterproof, the resulting part will be very warm for daily use in combat conditions.
There is a myth that needs to be clarified. The fabric used in smocks made in Germany is not waterproof. So if we assume that the fabric brick brown smock is not 100% waterproof, it does not represent evidence against adverse character. Another factor that may have influenced is that the application of chemical treatment based on wax called "Peristol" whose purpose during wartime was the waterproofing, may have been the victim of washing which these smocks were subjected to once they left the iron curtain .
Conclusion: The impermeability is not a sine qua non or necessary to authenticate a Waffen SS smock requirement."
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 12-15-2015, 03:25 PM.Comment
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I dont find this example too washed out either. Quite strong colours especially on the autumn side.Comment
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frontComment
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I can't say it was washed for certain or not, if so lightly . BTW in the 70s I washed uniforms that needed it myself in the bathtub or took it them to the dry cleaner.
I think there is every chance nutmeg's may have been washed at least once lightly but then again, may be his smock and some "Birch" smocks were not washed at all ???
Chris[/QUOTE]Comment
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Its quite simple to see real from fake in post 1405.
Top jacket is real SS WW2 manufacture.
Its over print.
These are classic colors that SS garments carry in most jackets
Look at the cuffs.
They are oak over print.
Note the rich strong colors.
These are typical oak colors.
The sewing thread in this garment is either black of Field grey cotton.
The bottom Pink jacket is a classic copy.
Its colors bears NO relation to ANY other WW2 manufactured SS camouflaged item.
The print is weak.
Its thread is like nothing else in the SS manufacturing system.
Is plainly easy to see whats wrong with it instantly.
I STRONGLY BELIEVE THE CLOTH WAS PRINTED ORIGINALLY USING A USED CONDITION PIECE OF OAK PATTERN AS ITS COLOR STANDARD.
ITS TYPICAL WHEN A NON EXPERIENCED FAKER MAKES SOMETHING.
The used print gives it legs.
Sad but true.
owenComment
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Originally posted by NickG View Post
Originally posted by RobertE View Post
this theory is wrong. Sorry Andrei'statement has misleaded you as the film company he mentione did not exist prior 1961.
Ofiicial name of this Minsk Studio is "Minsk Studio of Popular Scientific and Chroniclal-documentary films" has been established in 1961. Seven years later in 1968 it was renamed to "Letopis" and merged/bacame a part of Belarusfilm
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Originally posted by kammo man View Post
What do you see Owen,
old hag or beautiful young lady looking sideways ?
One even has "red-brown" hair for you
ChrisComment
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There was only one movie company in Minsk until 1961 - "Belarusfilm".Originally posted by andrei1774 View Post
The "Minsk-film" is a fantasy name on the fake stamp.Comment
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Its a sad decline in the SS forum that not many members can see a fake SS Pink jacket when they see one.
An older fake like this is a glaring example of this.
I am sick and tired of 90th lights personal jibes as a side note.
owenComment
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Yes,Originally posted by Disco Partisan View Post
but the movie-buffs here who are now looking into this have told me that in the 1940's, it consistantly had more than one division of the company.
We know of
- Moscow
- Leningrad
- Minsk
May be there are more ?
If uniforms are stored in Moscow what would they be stamped verses being stored in Minsk ?
And although the stamp looks to say "Minsk". Until we find a clear example, we still can not be 100% certain that is what it says.
It was the same situation with the year "1947". Until we found nutmeg's example, it was open to speculation as to what it exactly the numbers were,
ChrisComment
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