"Pink" smock or not?

[phild]

I think they have all been washed Glenn, but some have been washed a lot more than others. It is like they were trying to wash the stamps out of some.

Of course, that may not be the case at all and it might be washing to over-come the pee/ rodent smell verse import requirements.

Unwashed/ lightly washed are hard to find in my experience

It will be interesting to see what phild has to say on the matter,

Chris

I have seen the same thing as you state above. Many show little to no signs of having been washed (I am really trying to think back to what I saw in Germany and Austria in the very early 1980s because 30 years later anything could and has been done to many of these that I run into) and really the clue for me then was that the hbt pocket bags showed the washing the most of any component of the smock. My example is very bright and not faded like the last example posted by Chris. Also on mine and many others (but not the one posted by Chris) the ONLY area of the smock sewn with the heavy green thread is the pocket flap and pocket flap button hole...even the flap is attached to the smock with the lighter gray thread that can be seen on the sleeve seams on Chris's example.....I'm not saying that means much but just noting it.

There were many examples that I saw back then that were more faded or heavily washed or maybe washed in stronger detergent or hotter water as opposed to actually more washings? It think that they were also tumble dried....but hard to say 100%. Some were also damaged both prior to the washing (holes for instance) and maybe as a result of the washing with pulled loose seams mostly around the elastic.
Also a clue to washing is the wear on the high parts of the pleats or gathers where the elastic in waist and cuffs is sewn.....but this kind of wear will also always happen with normal wear and use as well.

My strong guess is that these were washed in large industrial type machines or if not it would have taken a week to wash this many of these.....but either way they would have to have been washed in batches either to import or to handle I guess......

What I do not know because I was not there and have read and heard some conflicting things in this regard is if these were washed before or after coming in to Austria.....I strongly suspect it was before.....but if so the "bales" would not have been wartime configured of course.....so I don't know.

[RobertE]

Some have been washed more than others, but all of them are in very good condition - the one I kept is excellent. The degree to which they were washed depends on how much it needed to be cleaned, for import purposes or basic collectability.

We have only had three original SS items surface so far with these stamps, though only the two smocks are currently associated with the Floch haul.

We don't know what else may have been in this lot, and we don't know whether the studio only dumped smocks and trousers, or other items. Whether other items bear these markings will depend on the collecting communities willingness to share photos, provided they even know this thread exists.

I'm sure other items will surface - whether they will mainly be SS smocks remains to be seen.

s/f Robert

[90th Light]

So all "pinks" have been washed to some degree then...What about the examples that Nutmeg posted and other accepted original SS camo that have these stamps? Do they show similar treatment? I would expect all of them to have been washed due to import requirements.


Any other non-SS items out there with these stamps other than SS camo? Surely the movie studio if it existed had other German items for use in films.


Glenn

It is only my opinion that they were all washed to some extent Glenn. I might be wrong and the example that I have posted images of is in fact not washed at all (will ask the owner). However it is something that can now be noted and recorded as more come to light.

As far as nutmeg's being washed, honestly based on one image alone that is not a close up I can not say for sure. It looks like it has not had a lot of washing. I am sure he will confirm for us.

I think it is also important to note that based on what happened with the tropical caps, Floch tended to hold the best examples back and sell the lesser examples first unless you were a collector known to him.

Chris

[kammo man]

Does the Nutmeg smock show the same heavy washing/fading as the pink smocks do?









Glenn

No this one appears mint.
And its 100% original.

[kammo man]

The only thing original about the Pink Clown jackets are the used buttons.
Everything else is reproduction

owen

[phild]

If we go back to page 83 and post 1231, the smock posted by NickG it is very close to "mint" and shows only and maybe the slightest signs of a light washing. The close ups posted about a page earlier then than that around post 1218 by Chris also show very vibrant colors in both the dye and thread used.

Nutmeg's example is (I agree) near mint, but my point is there are Birch's in the same condition as well.


Facts brought up and illustrated repeatedly in this thread (like the buttons) seem to get ignored and the same old false claims made. The fact about the buttons is that no real sampling in real numbers has been undertaken and certainly not posted. I have looked at this aspect on maybe 10-20 of these and can only say that some are matched and some are not....some may be used but it is hard to say in that I have never seen one of the these smocks with truly worn down buttons like I have seen on every heavy worn tunic.

I it like the extension of the camo pattern to fit the rollers......I'm not sure what if anything mis-matched or even used buttons have to do with these being fake or orginal......as either way that aspect would be OK.....

I stand by what I said 10 years ago and figured out in the early 1980s about these: If 500 were made as fakes, they had to find 2000 original buttons! They also hand sewed at least 4000 lace holes! That figure is taking into account that maybe 1/4 of these found had machine sewn lace holes.

[kammo man]

Its easy to sew button holes and find used buttons in Europe to make money if your business is making repos as the finder was.

[nutmeg]

If it's made at a difference place, say a factory in the East later in the war one might expect the fabric to be different and of a lesser quality.

I really think more the 94 pages will not help for the believers to make this "smock" a real one.. Till now I did own 2 pink smocks.

The cloth is not even close to all originals I have felt and have seen.

Its very thin, you can look through., very light weighted...

It feels like a very thin jacket.
When you fold it you won't hear any cracking thick sheet...

IMO it's post WWII.

Again.

Sold those 2 for 350 Euro's each...

If you will pay more , Ok no problem ., but the won't appear as original.

[nutmeg]

Doesn't look like it , the colors are brighter then in the photo. I didn't see the other three.

Does the Nutmeg smock show the same heavy washing/fading as the pink smocks do?









Glenn

[nutmeg]

Glenn,

I don't think so. I could have just meant one bale got peed on and other didn't . In fact some could have been smelly when the studio got them. The non pinks coming from a different place may have been baled seperately . We'll never know.

Frankly, I think the discussion overall of why some were washed and some weren't is kind of pointless.

I think is boils down to some were dirty and some not. Any speculation further then that is 100% guesswork

That's good to know....So some show heavy washing and some no washing at all.

If all the "pinks" showed heavy washing and the types that Nutmeg posted did not,then that would send up another red flag on these as they all supposedly came from the same source/movie studio.





Glenn

[kammo man]

If it's made at a difference place, say a factory in the East later in the war one might expect the fabric to be different and of a lesser quality.

Don
The consistency of SS pullover manufacture is very tight.
There is nothing in a Pink that holds up to an original like you have shown.

On your jacket.
Is there any numbers printed UNDER the pocket flaps on either side ?
May be a series of 3 numbers.

owen

[Bob Hritz]

I own two of them. Both are sewn on different machines with different threads and different spacing. One has 3 rows of stitching for the foliage loops and the other only has two.

The pattern from the front top of one smock matches the pattern from the bottom reverse of the other. I have not studied them to see if the pattern is identical, but I would believe they are.

One example is bright and the oher appears slightly faded. The bright ohe has the white spots where the rollers were not properly alligned to the cloth.

Neither has any Soviet markings, but one has the cut to one of the pockets.

When I have time, I will post photos.

Bob Hritz

[nutmeg]

Don
The consistency of SS pullover manufacture is very tight.
There is nothing in a Pink that holds up to an original like you have shown.

On your jacket.
Is there any numbers printed UNDER the pocket flaps on either side ?
May be a series of 3 numbers.

owen

i don't see any

[kammo man]

Ok,
Thats a really nice jacket by the way.
On certain mint ones its possible to see a manufacture code that appears.
It usually goes from light use and its worth a try sometimes to see it.
Many dead stock ones have it but NOT all.
Its just a cool bonus to an otherwise great jacket.

[Palmenmuster]

Don
The consistency of SS pullover manufacture is very tight.
There is nothing in a Pink that holds up to an original like you have shown.


owen

Is that so? What about hbt smocks ? And the Norwegian Oakleaf ? Is that a different story, do you believe they are fake also ?
Tom