"Pink" smock or not?

[kammo man]

Because they weren't in a NYC costume shop where there were no rats, mice or bugs. Everything was well fumigated (with god knows what) because damage from critters ruins inventory that is rental income. I would imagine Soviet storage facilities were somewhat way under that standard. Also these things could have been moved about in filthy box cars and traveled through various infested areas before working their way West. They could have smelled like rat pee or whatever. I had a Japanese helmet that a mouse had made a nest in , it took several months to get the pee smell out. If infested or smelly they might have been taken at customs so had to be cleaned first before export.

I worked in a Rag Mill for many years and we would process Military rag to the tune of 25000 pounds per week.
Thats twenty five thousand pounds per week.
I have seen it wall ways from the good and bad.
We even had a cat who did his business where ever he felt like.
I have handles millions of pounds of that rag and civilian and have much experience handling used clothing.
I have seen all grades of military clothing.
I am speaking for deep experience when I talk of washing military as we experimented in every way to make bad things serviceable.

IMHO based on a life time working in the industry the wash on the Pinks is purely artificial to cover up the new manufactures tracks.

I have examined many many jackets in Europe and the US and Canada and the uniformity in the horrible hot wash they received is evident.

I have also worked with some of the biggest costume houses and seen what happens behind the scenes.

[nutmeg]

I worked in a Rag Mill for many years and we would process Military rag to the tune of 25000 pounds per week.
Thats twenty five thousand pounds per week.
I have seen it wall ways from the good and bad.
We even had a cat who did his business where ever he felt like.
I have handles millions of pounds of that rag and civilian and have much experience handling used clothing.
I have seen all grades of military clothing.
I am speaking for deep experience when I talk of washing military as we experimented in every way to make bad things serviceable.

IMHO based on a life time working in the industry the wash on the Pinks is purely artificial to cover up the new manufactures tracks.

I have examined many many jackets in Europe and the US and Canada and the uniformity in the horrible hot wash they received is evident.

I have also worked with some of the biggest costume houses and seen what happens behind the scenes.

Please explain in detail exactly how YOU determine if something has been washed that it is strictly to cover up new manufacture. They were probably all washed together , so what?

[kammo man]

Please explain in detail how you do one of your paintings ?

[nutmeg]

Please explain in detail how you do one of your paintings ?

By magic like how you determine things I think you are only interested in obfuscating, hoping the moderators will close the thread. In the future I will not take your bait.

[kammo man]

You asked a ridiculous question.

I already told you they were washed to cover the new manufacture.

A guy puts them in a washing machine with soap.

You know how to create things .............so did the markets of this forgery.

owen

[90th Light]

I have found it. First some of the potentials risks/ dangers;

"When it comes to the importation of both new and used clothing. The EU approach developed since the the 1970's stands out as the model other countries are adopting to ensure consumers are protected. From an extensive list of restricted substances, there are "substances of very high concern" that the EU regulates more closely as potentially harmful to human health, including:

Chromium VI which is used on leather and new wool and can cause or exacerbate contact dermatitis
DMF which is used to prevent mould and moisture in leather goods and may cause extensive, pronounced eczema that is difficult to treat
phthalates which are used in PVC for shoes and rainwear and suspected of being carcinogenic and may disturb the hormone system
alkphenols which are used for textile and leather production and are strong disruptors of the human endocrine system and environmentally toxic
dispersion dyes which can cause allergy and rashes.

Other chemicals of concern include:

azo dyes, often used in the colouring process for textiles and leather products. Recently it has been recognised that some azo colouring agents may form amines (breakdown products) that may have carcinogenic and mutagenic (changing genetic material) properties. These are on the EU REACH restricted list.
chlorinated phenols (PCP, TeCP, TriCP) used in the processing of textiles. Contact with PCP (particularly in the form of vapour) can irritate the skin, eyes and mouth. Long-term exposure to low levels can cause damage to the liver, kidneys, blood and nervous system. Exposure to PCP is also associated with carcinogenic, renal and neurological effects.
formaldehyde which is used to "finish" fabric. Exposure to low levels irritates the eyes, nose, throat and can cause allergies affecting the skin and lungs. Higher exposure can cause throat spasms and build-up of fluid in the lungs, leading to death. Contact can also cause severe eye and skin burns with permanent damage. It is classified as a potential carcinogen."

Chris

[90th Light]

Second, What they required to be done


"Prove all second hand clothes are steam washed/ fumigated with a clearance certificate. Wash any suspect new clothes twice before wearing, although washing won't remove certain types of chemicals

Produce certified evidence for natural fibres, cotton, linen and wool, particularly for children's clothes

Prove certified manufacture with organic cottons, as well as natural and vegetable dyes

Avoid products labelled stain- or water-resistant unless the manufacturer provides details of the chemicals or processes used (such clothing may be subject to additional treament and checks)."

Chris

[90th Light]

Third, the potential bio-security risks of mice, rats, cats, dogs and anything larger that had access to these bails of clothing to do who knows what in them.


The Foot and mouth disease (FMD) scares/ restrictions of the 1970's, 1980's and subsequent decades. eg "Wild boar infections/ transmissions going on in the former USSR and infecting everything else around it i.e. wild life/ farm life

The dangers of seed, pollen and organic matter the becomes lodged in bails of old used clothing.

The dangers of dirt, dust, disease/ bacteria and spores/ mold in bails of used clothing that have not been stored or treated properly.

The list goes on and so do the importation requirements into the EU to meet regulations/ risk avoidance,

Chris

[NickG]

I already told you they were washed to cover the new manufacture.

A guy puts them in a washing machine with soap. You know how to create things .............so did the markets of this forgery.

owen

if these smocks were smuggled into the EU (during the 1980's ...cold war), I honestly don't think any EU fumigation certificates would have mattered...not asked for...
It was done for sanitation purposes to sell these...Plainly said "to get the reek out"...(rat pee odor) to make these marketable...We are not talking about stone washing or purposely damaging these to make them look old...as many did not! Just the exposure to the elements, storage in uncontrolled conditions did that to some (bottom of the bail)!
Many minty DAK tropical motorcycle (dispatch rider) overcoats were found with these same issues in Bavaria....Munich Depot marked.
I own 2, one had rodent chew damage...otherwise mint unissued...same story...probably bales of them were located as well...but in the West...forgotten in some warehouse.

[90th Light]

if these smocks were smuggled into the EU (during the 1980's ...cold war), I honestly don't think any EU fumigation certificates would have mattered...not asked for...
It was done for sanitation purposes to sell these...Plainly said "to get the reek out"...(rat pee odor) to make these marketable...We are not talking about stone washing or purposely damaging these to make them look old...as many did not! Just the exposure to the elements, storage in uncontrolled conditions did that to some (bottom of the bail)!
Many minty DAK tropical motorcycle (dispatch rider) overcoats were found with these same issues in Bavaria....Munich Depot marked.
I own 2, one had rodent chew damage...otherwise mint unissued...same story...probably bales of them were located as well...but in the West...forgotten in some warehouse.

You raise a good point here Nick,

they were smuggled out of the USSR but were they actually smuggled into Austria (another country in the EU ?) and declared.

Why would Floch or whoever have to smuggle them into the West ? He could just declare them as old military surplus, get it treated/ fumigated/ washed and pay the duty (if any). That way he was not committing a serious crime with high fines (prison ?) in the country he lived/ did business.

I know Austria joined the EU in 1995. However, before that, like New Zealand they had laws, restrictions and regulations to comply with. In regard to what you could import and what you had to do for it to enter the borders in regards to the risks.

Keep in mind the worry about "Foot and Mouth Disease" (FMD) in all countries back then.

"In 1980, foot and mouth treatment policy passed from the hands of the British government to the European level as a result of European Community directive, 85/511.",

Chris

[nutmeg]

They could have come from the USSR and maybe transferred to another studio in Yugoslavia or other Eastern block country before coming into Austria. When I was buying from Eaves Costume Company in NYC we often found garments with the marks of older costume companies and defunct film studios dating into the early 1900s. When one company would fold another would buy their bulk inventory. There were many German uniforms at Eaves, some complete some stripped.

You raise a good point here Nick,

they were smuggled out of the USSR but were they actually smuggled into Austria (another country in the EU ?) and declared.

Why would Floch or who ever have to smuggle them into the West. He could just declare them as old military surplus, get it treated/ fumigated/ washed and pay any duty (if any). That way he was not committing a crime in the country he lived/ did business in.

I know Austria joined the EU in 1995. However, before that like New Zealand they had laws, restrictions and regulations to comply with. Iin regard to what you could import and what you had to do for it to enter the borders in regards to the risk.

Keep in mind the worry about "Foot and Mouth Disease" (FMD) in all countries back then.



"In 1980, foot and mouth treatment policy passed from the hands of the British government to the European level as a result of European Community directive, 85/511.",

Chris

[kammo man]

if these smocks were smuggled into the EU (during the 1980's ...cold war), I honestly don't think any EU fumigation certificates would have mattered...not asked for...
It was done for sanitation purposes to sell these...Plainly said "to get the reek out"...(rat pee odor) to make these marketable...We are not talking about stone washing or purposely damaging these to make them look old...as many did not! Just the exposure to the elements, storage in uncontrolled conditions did that to some (bottom of the bail)!
Many minty DAK tropical motorcycle (dispatch rider) overcoats were found with these same issues in Bavaria....Munich Depot marked.
I own 2, one had rodent chew damage...otherwise mint unissued...same story...probably bales of them were located as well...but in the West...forgotten in some warehouse.

We all love the old smelly army surplus smell.
Who tries to get rid of that ?
Not many people.
Only a faker would wash a military item in a washing machine to make it appear worn.
Thats whats happened to the Pinks.

For all their movie stamp none show any signs of use.
Extras are very heavy on clothing and if used in a production the garment would have wear tear and repairs.
Repeated takes and week long shoots puts demands on the clothing that does NOT appear on the jackets.

Couple this with NO strings clearly shows the Pinks form never being actually used.

The artificial wear form washing is another smoke screen and layer to the fakery.

[90th Light]

They could have come from the USSR and maybe transferred to another studio in Yugoslavia or other Eastern block country before coming into Austria. When I was buying from Eaves Costume Company in NYC we often found garments with the marks of older costume companies and defunct film studios dating into the early 1900s. When one company would fold another would buy their bulk inventory. There were many German uniforms at Eaves, some complete some stripped.

Well, we have 3 possibilities nutmeg,

1/ get rid of pee, rodent nests and other nasty unspeakable/ smells

2/ comply with import requirements of bio-security/ dangerous materials

3/ Stonewashed just like LEVIS with extra strong pockets but no copper rivets


1/ & 2/ makes sense. 3/ why bother ?, SS smocks with bright un-faded colours sell for more. Just look at the Palm-Tree pattern for sale on the estand at the moment to see what I mean;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=793307

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ighlight=smock

Chris

[RobertE]

EASY....I have experience in Bosnia and other Balkans countries clearing out old JNA store houses. What you find in all cases is clothing and equipment that has been damp,cold, hot, etc and is smelly and mouldy, rats chewing on it, making nests in it etc. I found loads of cool and valuable stuff but took none! So for example old JNA yellow camo sniper suits( SAME as smocks ), or rain poncho-shelters (same as Zelts)...a few guys took those because they were still new, just had been subjected to that kind of unhygenic and mouldy storage. You would even have to wear masks inside! So, the only way would be a serious washing of that item....there you go. Half the stuff is actually too rotten to even take most times,you can never get the stink out of it.

Pete's got it right here. This is not some slightly musty odor, but a pervasive, nasty rot smell that will make you house or hobby room stink - I've spent lot's of time in these type environments in eastern Europe as well. To eliminate the odor, Chris did a fine job of capturing the regulations for importation textiles across European borders, which is something hoard movers like Floch would have known and abided by. Don and Nick have followed up with some decent common sense questions - this all make sense.

And one of our eastern European colleagues, Andrei, has discovered their was indeed a Minsk film enterprise and that it was involved in the production of documentaries, which was bread and butter production fare for films on WWII in the Soviet Republics. It took three days; imagine what we'll know in three months or three years. This is a point of research that takes time, and I've written Belarus Film and others to see what they can share - this aspects of the smocks will also be revealed, don't worry.

So in three days, we've discovered another beautiful wartime smock with identical markings (evidence), that the HBT pocket material in the new original smock is identical to the Birch smocks (evidence), and that the unreadable stamps are not only readable, but relate to a known film company in Belarus (evidence). This is addition to all the previously introduced facts laid out by Chris and others.

What new evidence do you have that these are fake, Owen? Not subjective comments, but actual facts that carry the weight of any of the three I posted above (material match, markings match, film company match)?

s/f Robert

[kammo man]

The pocket bags are NOT the same.