"Pink" smock or not?

[Fritz]

IMO the problem here is that it takes way too many ifs, whens and maybes to explain why these are supposed to be period items.

It may well be that points were addressed before but with this ongoing debate it is not that easy to be up to date with what had been posted and what not.

Has anybody thought about why these smocks are the M42 type 1 and not the M42 type 2 which is to be expected if they were "late war stocks"? Let allone that smocks were discontinued about one and a half year before the war ended in europe.

That will require more ifs and maybes.

Of course components such as buttons and basic fabrics were readily available after the war. The early east german forces used such components as well.


Cheers

[phild]

IMO the problem here is that it takes way too many ifs, whens and maybes to explain why these are supposed to be period items.

It may well be that points were addressed before but with this ongoing debate it is not that easy to be up to date with what had been posted and what not.

Has anybody thought about why these smocks are the M42 type 1 and not the M42 type 2 which is to be expected if they were "late war stocks"? Let allone that smocks were discontinued about one and a half year before the war ended in europe.

That will require more ifs and maybes.

Of course components such as buttons and basic fabrics were readily available after the war. The early east german forces used such components as well.


Cheers

I don't know why they would have to be later war (or type 2) to be be candidates for captured or un-issued stocks. They may have been captured for instance in the summer of 43 (plenty of forward supply facility material was) and not in the spring/summer of 45. I personally think that it makes more sense that the Soviets captured these in say 43 then accounting for them sitting un-issued in the hands of the Germans for 2 1/2 years....either is possible I guess.

There are a number of things about these that have never added up to fake for me. Any one or two would be OK and could be dismissed, but there are a lot of details in these and in the circumstance of how they turned up that make no sense for a fake, meaning just a way to loose a lot of potential money for nothing.

One thing is the hand sewn eyelets and the other are these stamps....more so the defaced ones. There is a LOT of extra sewing in these both with the loops and the extensive re-enforcing (often almost hidden) that does not add up on a 1970s/1980 era fake...same with the buttons and the extent in which they are attached.


I guess the problem is everthing on both sides of this debate can be explained away or ignored, but for me those stamps now that we have connected to them to the Soviet Museum system is impossible to ignore.....and many of us know that those stamps were not "faked" into these smocks.

[90th Light]

"Roller printing"

"Double needle stitching"

It all points to big, established factory production capable of achieving a reasonable economy of scale. Never cheap when it comes down to "over-heads" and the "fixed costs" of such an operation

And here is another thing that has not been considered in this on going investigation; The "width of the bolts of cloth" they are made from

The bolts of cloth that the "Pink" smocks are made from are the pre war type which was just over "3 foot wide" ( 1 foot = 12 English inches in measurement)

When I first got my one, I showed it to an old master tailor in his seventies and asked about the "salvage" at the end of the cuff. He mesured it up for me in a way that only a tailor could do and told me that it had been made from bolts of cloth that were the widest you could get before WW2. The slavage at the cuff end was the manufacturer using the ends of the bolt which is very strong so it does not unravel.

He told me that after the war in the 1950's & 60's, the cloth mills improved their machines and bolts of cloth got wider 4ft, 6ft & 9ft. The carpet industry often leading the way for special orders,

Chris

p.s. the way the "slavage" is woven is also a pre-WW2 way of doing this. You sometimes see this type of salvage on the scrap wool joined together on the reverse side of a WW2 German shoulder board. Again after WW2, the width of salvage on a bolt of cloth was woven tighter, stronger and narrow when compare to what was made before WW2.

[90th Light]

And just to add to the mix about Russian stamps in WW2 German clothing

I have often wondered , if the George Petersen find of all those " Lago Berlin " black Panzer sidecaps was not as well known by so many versed/ experienced collectors of that time. Would they be as readily accepted today as they are and would the Russian capture/ museum markings in them not be viewed with a lot more suspicion,

Chris

[phild]

Chris, thanks for both posts. I can tell you that here in the states at least many many collectors and dealers were saying that the items brought in by GP in the late 80s/early 90s were fake. The cited the ink stampings, the quantity of identical items and makers and also the non-standard nature of many of the items.....they had never seen other examples in exactly the same material...etc.....Now one would be hard pressed to find anyone who would admit to that view back then, but I know some them and they are still around.....but with much different views on the GP material.

Many collectors doubted the Italien gaberdine single button SS officer M43 caps back then with the 1951 inventory dates for example........everyone today who was around this back then seems to have forgotten the nay saying on this material back then.

[90th Light]

Chris, thanks for both posts. I can tell you that here in the states at least many many collectors and dealers were saying that the items brought in by GP in the late 80s/early 90s were fake. The cited the ink stampings, the quantity of identical items and makers and also the non-standard nature of many of the items.....they had never seen other examples in exactly the same material...etc.....Now one would be hard pressed to find anyone who would admit to that view back then, but I know some them and they are still around.....but with much different views on the GP material.

Many collectors doubted the Italien gaberdine single button SS officer M43 caps back then with the 1951 inventory dates for example........everyone today who was around this back then seems to have forgotten the nay saying on this material back then.

Thanks phild,

very interesting. I knew that some collectors had questioned the hand applied badges on the George.P. panzer caps but not the actual caps themselves.

Every thing was there when he found them however, except some panzer wraps were minus insignia. Here are a couple of images which are already on WAF in another thread about this.

This is how the stuff was coming to the surface in the 1980's & early 90's. In bulk finds,

Chris

p.s. I wonder if anyone has any images of the "Pink" smocks when they were found all tied together in bales with serious rodent damage on the outside. I know that Bob Hritz talked about this some years ago. In fact, I think he might have got a rodent damaged sleeve from one.

[kammo man]

George stated to me the pinks are fake many times when asked .

owen

[90th Light]

George stated to me the pinks are fake many times when asked .

owen

Prove it,

Chris

[kammo man]

Are you calling me a Liar ?


if so you are barking up the wrong tree............

[pete]

.

Owen, we could use your input here. You have said you have one of these with Duckhunter camo somewhere on it? Also, in any of the smocks you have seen or handled before, I mean at least the 100% accepted ones, have there ever been any sort of eastern stamping? The same for anyone else? We could use more examples of surviving stamps so i ask all of you to see if anyone has one like this still.




Regards,

Pete

[90th Light]

Are you calling me a Liar ?


if so you are barking up the wrong tree............

I am not calling you anything.

You have made a statement of something which you claim happened many times.

It is quite simple, back it up with proof. Otherwise it becomes nothing more than a form of hearsay or a vague recollection what may or may not have happened.

Thus of little use in adding any thing to this investigation.

Of course if you can prove it and why he said that then that would change things.

I ask nothing more of you than what a qualified historian or learned man would ask,

Chris

[Fritz]

We have:

- No drawstrings
- No other camo material mixed in
- No other camo material with the same pattern just with other tones mixed in
- No period picture that backs this type up
- No zelt, no cover, no cap no kombi in the same pattern
- Odd material
- Odd print
- Odd thread (grey and green)
- The very unlikely event that these got captured from some ss depot in the soviet union in 1943.
- The list could be continued

Now all these facts are being "excused away" in order to support these items authenticity. That doesn't work for me, even if they had a Kremlin stamp with Stalin's signature. Sorry.

I know many people like them and I respect that but to me these will never be original german ww2 garments and I will post my opinion.

Cheers

[90th Light]

We seem to be very hung up on the fact that the Pink smocks had no "drawstrings" when they were found. I see that it is top of Fritz's list in post number 327

Is it a documented fact that an SS smock was always issued with a draw string/ lace ???

The reason I ask, because the high tropical boot uses a very similar lace if not the same. The boots were not issued with the laces. As a soldier got his tropical uniform the items were ticked off by the quartermaster. He got cap, jacket, undies etc, etc, high (tr) boot, lace for high (tr) boot ( if needed ), great coat (olive) etc, etc.

I know this about tropical uniforms because I have several "personal equipment issued" lists which were captured when 3.A.A. were ambushed in November 1941. In fact I even got tropical chocolate and bread ( among many other things captured at the time ).

Now if the WH were issuing the boots seperate from the laces then why would the SS be any different ? Why issue a soldier who was replacing a damage smock a lace for a smock when he already had one and did not need another ? Looking at the WH tropical lists, this point was checked off seperately.

The Germans were always frugal in their thinking, production and logistics ( may be the laces were not all cheap, made in China back then like they are today ),

Chris

[Fritz]

We seem to be very hung up on the fact that the Pink smocks had no "drawstrings" when they were found. I see that it is top of Fritz's list in post number 327

Well, something has to be top of my list. And feel free to address the other issues - which are plenty.

Add to the list that oak smocks were relatively scarce in the first place. Another oddity. The vast majority was plane tree and blurred edge.

All that melts the chance of these being good down to steam IMHO.

If you want to back these up you'll need way too many excuses. And the way I take it the main defense line now is some museum stamp. It seems as if the smock itself doesn't provide what it takes to set up a proper defense position.

Cheers

[90th Light]

Well, something has to be top of my list. And feel free to address the other issues - which are plenty.

Add to the list that oak smocks were relatively scarce in the first place. Another oddity. The vast majority was plane tree and blurred edge.

Cheers

You have solved it Fritz,

there was such a shortage of "oak smocks" for summer wear 44. All the fashion back then. They rushed the "Pink" ones into production to keep up with latest high street demand

You know what I mean, "oh ! "plane tree" and "blurred edge" is so summer of 42 and summer of 43. I just would not be seen dead in them, this summer in France 44"

Only problem was some allied plonker blew up the train, the railway track and the station before they could be delivered

Chris

p.s. then again may-be they were made for the "summer of 45 look" and it all ended too soon ???