"Pink" smock or not?

[Fritz]

"It is merely an indication that an item was made in some larger facility and not just a tailor-shop"

there.

You know what an indication is?

[RobertE]

Pete, thank you for your thoughtful, on-topic input on the possible origin of the markings in the smocks under discussion.

A museum marking would make sense, as would a property or re-issue tamp if used post war. I appreciate your objective approach to this uniform item.

regards, Robert

[phild]

It looks like a different stamp but just compare some details, for example: Look at the NO__________ on this stamp and the CG link stamp, also same blacked out pattern.....So does anyone know the history on this M43 Tunic?.......now, if we can also identify the museum of origin, we may be able to see old inventory lists as well. A possibility.

http://www.germanmilitaria.<wbr>com/WaffenSS/photos/S004868.<wbr>html

The post above and the ones above this made by Pete are the 500lb Gorilla on the sofa relating to these smocks. There can be no further speculation or dismissal of these smocks until why these stamps are placed in these is reconciled.

There is much that I do not know about these smocks, but there are some things that I know 100% about them because I looked at a good number of the them still in the hands of the dealers in Germany right after they came in and spoke with those dealers.

One of the things that I do know is that these stamps were in these smocks (many of them at least) before they came in to Germany for sale...the dealers in Germany were downplaying the stamps and had no idea what they were or why they were...they were not put into these to deceive anyone as NO ONE in this field had any idea or clue about Russian property stamps until almost TEN years after these smocks turned up! Many collectors thought at the time that the smocks were fake for a couple of reasons...one because they were "different" and the other is because of these stamps...they thought that they must have been placed there by the "outfit" that made them and they were not WWII German stamps....hence they had to be fake.....it not occur to people back then that the Russians captured and warehoused hundreds of tons of German equipment and uniforms and that much of it was inventoried and so marked.


As for the double needle sewing on these, I agree with Fritz that these machines during that period were used by larger facilities generally. The important thing to keep in mind is that the advantage of the double needle seam is strength and secondary the speed of sewing the seam as it requires one pass rather than two....they are as pointed out more tricky and difficult to make. As it relates to these smocks it is like every other aspect of that is seen them, that they were made 100% for utility (strength and standing up to use) and not to copy 1:1 the German made smocks stitch for stitch and shade for shade. This is a very odd characteristic for a fake exhibit and I would dare say unique in the world of 3rd Reich fakes.

[Felix]

I am glad the discussion goes on. I feel there is a need. I am not taking sides. But as comments say, there is a forensic way, and we need to walk that path.

I wish this mystery to continue until the bitter end

Ok, jokes apart, I feel there is a need. Either way.

//Felix

[pete]

.

The more I look the more i find....A pattern of Blacked out stamps in a similiar way for some reason is very common, and it seems also prevelant in both original and repro items that came out of film studios or other sources, as well as now fakers employing marking over as a way to make it appear it came out of a studio. Now go back before 1990 and how common was this?...or so I understand, what would have been the value then as it would have the opposite effect, which is why others say people were generally spooked by these marks.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+stamps&page=2

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...blacked+stamps

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...blacked+stamps

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...blacked+stamps


Pete

[Graham G]

You know what an indication is?

but, how is it an indication? it means nothing, nothing at all. Anyone can do it, just as easy as a factory.

[phild]

I am glad the discussion goes on. I feel there is a need. I am not taking sides. But as comments say, there is a forensic way, and we need to walk that path.

I wish this mystery to continue until the bitter end

Ok, jokes apart, I feel there is a need. Either way.

//Felix

I agree.

I would like to identify the entity and procedure for the most credible forensic testing. I would assume that most if not all characteristics of the smock would be tested and that a baseline of these characteristics did and did not (should that be found) exist in pre 1945 Europe would be the measure.

Of course even if they pass all tests that does not prove that they were made pre45, but the the other finding would prove that they were not.

I would think that a good number of these have been basically destroyed during the time since they appeared due to being written off as real. I personally have seen some helmet covers made from these and several others re-dyed and torn up by re-enactors.....I do not see decent examples all that much anymore. Maybe some one has a trashed one that has not been re-dyed that they could contribute to the cause?

I know that if such a test proves that these had to have been made after 1945 I want more than anything to find out why those Russian Museum stamps were placed in them.

[RobertE]

Bob Hritz showed a photo of one of the pink smocks with an overprint back in 2007, and I posted similiar pictures of a "pink" I own. Like Bob's, mine appears to have been using the roller print method.

My point: in additional to being a good-quality cotton fabric that is on par with other German field clothing, these were produced like the forum-approved German manunufactured type, which also suffered from the occasional mis-aligned printing mishap that shows the "white".

Somebody had the heavy printing machinery to produce a multi-color fabric, on two sides. A point to consider.

s/f Robert

[Fritz]

but, how is it an indication? it means nothing, nothing at all. Anyone can do it, just as easy as a factory.

Ok!

[Fritz]

Bob Hritz showed a photo of one of the pink smocks with an overprint back in 2007, and I posted similiar pictures of a "pink" I own. Like Bob's, mine appears to have been using the roller print method.

The pattern is of course roller printed. But despite of the fact that the original printing method for oak was the roller print method most patterns (incl. plane tree) were reproduced using rollers. So that feature doesn't back these smocks up.

I am not sure these smocks here are really fake, I said earlier that I believe it could be possible that they were made for some communist bloc army after the war.

I can't support the theory that those armies would dismiss german material of whatever nature based on the fact that it was german. It is a fact they have used camouflage items, equipment, weapons and even built their own variant of the SdKfz 251, the OT-810. And they probably kept all the machinery they used during the war to produce for the german forces and wouldn't mind to adopt the design of camo patterns or that of entire garments.



I just don't believe these smocks to be of wartime production.

Has anyone ever had one with the original drawstring? Why are these absent? Especially since these smocks are unissued?

Has anyone ever encountered one (perhaps we soon will?) that uses other camo patterns or even the same pattern in different tones for sections such as the lower sleeves on these smocks?

I don't get to like these.

[phild]

Has anyone ever had one with the original drawstring? Why are these absent?

Has anyone ever encountered one (perhaps we soon will?) that uses other camo patterns or even the same pattern in different tones for sections such as the lower sleeves on these smocks?

I don't get to like these.

Fritz,

The concerns above have been raised and addressed before on these. I admit that the explanations are speculation, but they at least account for why those two concerns are not hard to account for.

I don't know if drawstrings were placed into the eyelets of SS smocks at the factory or even included with them during the war....in some cases much less all cases. It is just as hard to explain the "missing" string if these are fakes, old movie copies or post war East Bloc military smocks as all of those scenarios would have had strings as well. I know that I have seen many original SS smocks without period original strings and even most every original smock that I have seen with a period string is a long way from convincing me that the string was in it since 45.

The second concern about the mis-matched fabric being used. This would ONLY apply if the factory making the smock was also involved or had been involved in making smocks using other patterns and had excess of that production around to incorporate.

For me there is no question at all that these smocks were not made at a standard/normal/ German production facility that made a lot or any other camo items (if they were we would be seeing other things with these characteristics and materials around and no one would be saying that they are different from standard German SS made smocks) so if in fact these are contract made in a foreign facility one would not at all expect to find any other German made SS pattern fabric used at all in them....and there is not.


I will tell you this: I have inspected these smocks with pocket flaps, or lower sleeves, or opening flaps that were made from slip printed material like posted by Robert above......this proves nothing....OTHER than these parts of these smocks were cut separatly and in the case of the pocket flaps made separatly that they rest of the smock and then came together on into the fabrication of the unit.....in other words JUST like the German made SS smocks were built that caused them to use mis-matched material.....I can also tell you that Heer water pattern smocks were the same way and winter padded camo garmets.

[RobertE]

Your points are well taken. I will say that while roller production is used on some fake items (not just SS), it does ratchet the difficulty factor up. It isn't hard evidence, but it supports original more than it negates it.

I don't know if these are original or not. I do believe they could have been used by a post-war army, and could be of wartime (pre-1945) manufacture. The Spanish used German aircraft, Israel 98ks, Norwegians weapons, helmets, shovels, you name it - from vehicles to shovel covers WWII German items were used. These could have been stored (museum / wartime stores) but probably were not actually reissued.

I see by your references you believe the pink smocks may have originated in the Czech republic - certainly possible. When remains the question.

Missing components in uniform and field gear manufacturing is a promising point, to me. Anyone that could produce or find HBT and original buttons for pockets could find suitable drawstring material. The German industry use of component manufacturing could just mean this large lot never got their drawstrings, and they could certainly have been issued without them.

I took some comparison photos against an original zelt - not very far off at all. I'll post them if I have time this weekend.

[phild]

I no longer have any reason to believe that these smocks have any connection to CZ other than they may have been wartime made there or may have passed through there on their way from the USSR to West-Germany in 1980.

If these are post war produced for an East Bloc army then I would like for someone to tell me why they were in a Soviet Museum system and stamped as such?

The slipped roller pattern defect was certainly known in 1980.....but to say that it was replicated to fool collectors BACK THEN is so over the top for me to buy that I can not say anything more about it.

There are a number of some of the most respected collectors around who have posted over the 10 years that these have been discussed as to seeing the stamps and cut out pocket areas in the immediate time that these came in to Germany.......how anyone can think that these stamps were put into these and then defaced to fool collectors is nothing short foolish. If one suggest such they need to show the proof or abstain.....because it simply did not happen.

[phild]

I did not serve in the W-SS during WWII....just for the record, so I don't know in every case just how each item was issued....and I doubt that any German soldier does either because I'll bet that it varied.

I can say that it is not un-usual in some armies and in in the post war period to have items issued as new with components like laces and straps issued non-attached.....having never been attached.

It is interesting too me that most every Heer Water pattern smock that I have seen has what is clearly the original tie string in place.......this not at all the case with most SS smocks that I have seen.....I will say that the % of tie string correct SS smocks around in the last 10 years or so is off the charts higher than the same state I saw them in during the 70s-80s.

[RobertE]

Sorry Phild, we posted at the same time. My comments were in response to Fritzs' post, above.

I agree that the overprint - created at the time these appeared - is a good sign. While the origin and use of the stamps continues to be discussed, the chances a faker added them to help authenticate is very low.

regards, Robert