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**Z19** · 11-15-2007, 08:58 AM

Prices?

John, I've seen this in other collectible markets I'm associated with as well. The thing you have to understand is that even though we are in the computer age and "everyone" is online thats not necessarily true. You look at the number of active members here and that are online everyday on this forum and that represents a very small persentage of active collectors. Also, from what I've seen, the big ticket items you are talking about never go for sale publicly but are private deals between private collectors that do not want their business broadcast openly. The number of 5 and 6 figure deals that take place on a regular basis is a lot higher than one would think.

Alex

**BlackBelt** · 11-15-2007, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by NTZ View Post

Please share it with us nerds in the headgear area. By the way, I think you win for the best job.

Thanks. I think there are pictures of it in the "Display Forum" in my "Bunker."

**BlackBelt** · 11-15-2007, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by Z19 View Post

John, I've seen this in other collectible markets I'm associated with as well. The thing you have to understand is that even though we are in the computer age and "everyone" is online thats not necessarily true. You look at the number of active members here and that are online everyday on this forum and that represents a very small persentage of active collectors. Also, from what I've seen, the big ticket items you are talking about never go for sale publicly but are private deals between private collectors that do not want their business broadcast openly. The number of 5 and 6 figure deals that take place on a regular basis is a lot higher than one would think.

Alex

........

**Dr. Strangelove** · 11-15-2007, 09:58 AM

Psych

I think there is a good chance we are actually spoiled. We operate in a Sea swimming with quality memorabilia carried back by souvineer hungry GI's. The myth of the Waffen SS is not getting weaker, but stronger worldwide. And as the Dollar devalues and Bwaneks predictions about Asians entering the Market come to fruition I think prices will skyrocket. Imagine getting on your favorite dealers website and seeing Chinese as an option. If you think $30,000.00 for an awesome tunic is expensive hold onto your hat. The next ten years are really going to be crazy.

There is another aspect of collecting that I would like to touch upon. Waffen SS insignia etc. is in such hot demand for many reasons some of which are not well understood even by the collectors. The obvious being the elite nature of the units, rarity and asthetic beauty of the uniforms. I think that for many people the issues are deeper. They involve living in a society that focuses on Capitalism and lacks Culture. There is no real Altruistic sense today, it is every one for his or her self and what did Brittany Spears say or do? Waffen SS items represent centuries of German Military tradition, devotion to duty and self-sacrifice not seen in todays world. Not to mention a real sense of community. Is it any wonder that people want to hold onto items that represent an ideal and system of beliefs in a World that no longer has any? I cannot explain exactly what I mean as my Doctorate is not in Social Psychology.

When you sit around in your collecting room and you feel relaxed have you asked yourself why? When you can answer that than you will understand the manic drive for people to aquire these iitems. So if you do not understand the above paragraph just answer the question I pose in this one.

**Scott A. Hess** · 11-15-2007, 10:22 AM

I've bought a few SS sets in the last few years in this price range, mind you, it was unplanned, the items simply became available and were then and I believe now as well, "one lookers". I waited a long time to acquire these pieces, in the right condition and as well unmessed with. I believe they will always find a home if I should decide to part with them. I know the items are expensive, but for me it was a question of now or probably never, and as mentioned, the condition was what I wanted and had waited a long time for. I can't imagaine doing this every year, as its a huge outlay of funds. Having said that, its better by far than plunking it down for a Japanese car/other car that in five-ten years will be worth nothing. Many people spend that kind of cash without thinking twice on a car, boat, etc.

**Scott A. Hess** · 11-15-2007, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post

I think there is a good chance we are actually spoiled. We operate in a Sea swimming with quality memorabilia carried back by souvineer hungry GI's. The myth of the Waffen SS is not getting weaker, but stronger worldwide. And as the Dollar devalues and Bwaneks predictions about Asians entering the Market come to fruition I think prices will skyrocket. Imagine getting on your favorite dealers website and seeing Chinese as an option. If you think $30,000.00 for an awesome tunic is expensive hold onto your hat. The next ten years are really going to be crazy.

There is another aspect of collecting that I would like to touch upon. Waffen SS insignia etc. is in such hot demand for many reasons some of which are not well understood even by the collectors. The obvious being the elite nature of the units, rarity and asthetic beauty of the uniforms. I think that for many people the issues are deeper. They involve living in a society that focuses on Capitalism and lacks Culture. There is no real Altruistic sense today, it is every one for his or her self and what did Brittany Spears say or do? Waffen SS items represent centuries of German Military tradition, devotion to duty and self-sacrifice not seen in todays world. Not to mention a real sense of community. Is it any wonder that people want to hold onto items that represent an ideal and system of beliefs in a World that no longer has any? I cannot explain exactly what I mean as my Doctorate is not in Social Psychology.

When you sit around in your collecting room and you feel relaxed have you asked yourself why? When you can answer that than you will understand the manic drive for people to aquire these iitems. So if you do not understand the above paragraph just answer the question I pose in this one.

I agree 100 percent. Sitting in a room surrounded by mannequins of the Waffen SS is for me quite satisfying, always has been, imagine it always will be.

**stonemint** · 11-15-2007, 11:17 AM

As another visor geek, it seems that minty condition visors are much rarer than minty SS stuff in general--go to any of the major dealer sites, and its one SS uniform/dagger/helmet/cufftitle after another--all in near mint condition, and at insane prices. Price of SS stuff is not determined by rarity, and imho, it is much more available now than it was 25 years ago
(go pull a Manions from the late 70's/early 80's and see how many Allgemeine tunics were listed back then if you don't believe me.)
I will agree, Dachau stuff has always been plentiful, as have the daggers.

The supply seems to exceed the demand--many of these items seem to sit on dealer web sites, mainly because the price is so outrageous. Go to a show an notice how many Himmler daggers are on tables unsold. So I don't know if demand is the sole factor in the pricing of these items--its more mystique, imho.....

**N.C. Wyeth** · 11-15-2007, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post

When you sit around in your collecting room and you feel relaxed, have you asked yourself why? When you can answer that, than you will understand the manic drive for people to aquire these items. So if you do not understand the above paragraph just answer the question I pose in this one.

This is the best advice I've heard in along time - something I believe everyone MUST do! I do this quite often, and I know the answer I find really changes the way I approach my collecting addiction . . .

Great advice Dr.!!

Brad

**BlackBelt** · 11-15-2007, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Scott A. Hess View Post

I've bought a few SS sets in the last few years in this price range, mind you, it was unplanned, the items simply became available and were then and I believe now as well, "one lookers". I waited a long time to acquire these pieces, in the right condition and as well unmessed with. I believe they will always find a home if I should decide to part with them. I know the items are expensive, but for me it was a question of now or probably never, and as mentioned, the condition was what I wanted and had waited a long time for. I can't imagaine doing this every year, as its a huge outlay of funds. Having said that, its better by far than plunking it down for a Japanese car/other car that in five-ten years will be worth nothing. Many people spend that kind of cash without thinking twice on a car, boat, etc.

Well said.

**Bobwirtz** · 11-15-2007, 11:40 AM

I was told by a couple of veteran SS collectors that back in the 1960s you would go to a show and find only a handful of SS insignia, rarely a cap or tunic. But if you go to the MAX or SOS, you can outfit your own battalion. Truth is, supply has not outstripped demand... most of the stuff you see today is FAKE. And there are a lot of people out there cashing in on the FAKE stuff.

Bob

**BlackBelt** · 11-15-2007, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Bobwirtz View Post

I was told by a couple of veteran SS collectors that back in the 1960s you would go to a show and find only a handful of SS insignia, rarely a cap or tunic. But if you go to the MAX or SOS, you can outfit your own battalion. Truth is, supply has not outstripped demand... most of the stuff you see today is FAKE. And there are a lot of people out there cashing in on the FAKE stuff.

Bob

Bob is 100% correct, and I believe is a good authority on this subject. I see at least 20 or more fake SS insignia to 1 authentic. Uniforms in my opinion out way even the insignia numbers.

**John Pic** · 11-15-2007, 01:18 PM

Some thoughtful replies and some horsehocky mixed in. I sat at a table this past weekend and at the table was a large riker full of original cuffbands and another full of original insignias..none sold.They can be found on Grenadier Military Antiques website...Bruce is a super nice guy Ive known him over 25 years now from California..so Im not really a dealer hater as some think..I just know they arent perfect and know as much as the next guy sometimes less.For instance Bruce showed me a wonderful Shako from the 1800s he knew it inside and out and you could see the love in his eyes.. its his specialty and I know zip about them. Does he make mistakes..undoubtedly sometimes pointed out by people on forums but he is a salesman not an all around expert as some paint some dealers as then tear them down when they have a fake for sale.Some dealers with really good reps put stuff together and sell it regularly with no cosequence at full dealer price too.

There were no chinese or Russians, a couple of Europeans but they were also seeking the bargain buy.

What interests me is why a Deutschland SSVT M37 cut officers tunic with DKiG loops and an early numbered tab with the number removed was the cheapest $16500 tunic in Wolfe's inventory on a chair near it was a later war LAH Sturbannfuhrer for $25000.. that intrigues me, this was 4 years ago too now.

I want to now why tunics with NO,ZIP,NADA,NONE provenance offered by prestigious names are valued as high or higher than some in other unknown peoples collections? Nick said=clear provenance what does that MEAN to a collector really.Why is that restored officer tunic valued so high on Craigs site but worth a good laugh if I owned it? These are the questions I seek to find answers or reasons for.Clear provence is photographs,paperwork,names,places etc. I rarely see that if ever..recently a story of a uniform found rolled up between the two walls of a home but no real documented proof..what is proof..or ist it really that an item should stand on its own merits?

My Thule tunic was scrutinized by three big name experts and found to be "Put together" when asked why one said the hand stitching on the collar tabs was too poorly done, another the shoulder boards were fake, the other just said he knew it was but when confronted by the guy who sold it to me while I was there, denied he said it was put together. No good reasons but I lost a sale and a young collectors confidence..luckily it went to a good home..why do we put so much emphasis on what well known people think..do we ever get to a point where we learn what is good and what isnt on our own? I hear the well knowns saying "only buy if you have good proof " yet there they are selling items with NO proof whatsoever except it was passed on from so and so to so and so.

So why is it a tunic or cap from Wolfe or Shea without any proof is better and more valuable than one say from...a European source or an independant collector?Id love to hear reasons for this..do people really think a dealer name connection raises value even without proof?
What are my reasons for such a discussion..simple to destroy the mythical aura of the name game and bring everything onto a level playing field high priced or not.

The isles of the recent show look at the emptiness is the hobby burning out?
Karl Maria Demelhubers tunic and Great coat were there sitting on a table like a common Gefreiters tunic..you didnt even have to wade through gawkers to look at it.
the price one a dealer like Wolfe or Shea could afford why dont they buy it to go along with the Hitler shirt,Goering tunic,Dietrich overcoat and for what it is? After all a priceless SS Generals tunic!

Attached Files

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**Chad1** · 11-15-2007, 01:41 PM

supply of stuff

I think I'm a fairly cautious collector, but more stuff must be available now than in the '60s, just because it is seen as valuable, more collectible.

Instead of sitting in tool box in some garage, it's in a riker mount at a show.

That being said, I have no doubt that the number and quality of fakes is much more than before. That's clear enough to keep me from spending any real money in the area of insignia at least.

As far as provenance goes. It's nice, but mostly balogne. I love a good story and the best part of my collection isn't the pieces in it, but the history that I believe they were part of.

If I'm honest with myself, I didn't pick it up off the battlefield. That whole story could be the truth, or entirely made up.

**B. N. Singer** · 11-15-2007, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by John Pic View Post

...The isles of the recent show look at the emptiness is the hobby burning out?
Karl Maria Demelhubers tunic and Great coat were there sitting on a table like a common Gefreiters tunic..you didnt even have to wade through gawkers to look at it.
the price one a dealer like Wolfe or Shea could afford why dont they buy it to go along with the Hitler shirt,Goering tunic,Dietrich overcoat and for what it is? After all a priceless SS Generals tunic!

People who buy this stuff thinking it will be a "good investment" are absolutely diametrically opposite from where I have always stood with this hobby. Never, underscore NEVER, have I thought that I might get a "return on my investment" when I bought an item. I buy it because, for some personal quirk, I love this stuff! And more often than not, I end up overpaying for things I want.

Personally I would just be enthralled if the hobby would take a "big hit" and prices would plummet! Yes, I would be worth less on paper, but I have never considered my collection to be part of a net worth portfolio. Were that to happen, I would be able to better afford more of what offers me significant enjoyment in my life.

B. N. Singer

**John Pic** · 11-15-2007, 02:10 PM

AMEN !To that, that is the straight truth for me and I feel exactly the same way. You pay what you want for what you love and for that reason ..I cant ever make sense of this value/investment based buying and selling. For a man of few words those are good ones

If my SS uniform looses value over the years I can still watch old war flicks and read Yergers books while looking at my treasure enjoying the historical aspect and the childish glee that makes the hobby great

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