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**Fritz** · 09-02-2007, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by camo master View Post

Hi Fritz,
Thanks for getting back to me.
There is a good chance I will see it in the next couple months and will photograph it then. I can send you the photos at that point if you want. Do you personally know any collectors that have these palm zelts in their collections?
Thanks
Mark

I am sorry that I can't give any names here, although one of them who told me that is a well known collector that contributed to the beaver book on ss camo. He is also on the forum, I think he doesn't collect camo anymore but maybe in case he reads this he could join this thread.

I am looking forward to any pics, maybe we weill get the chance to look at an period piece!

Thanks!!

Fritz

**Petr** · 09-02-2007, 01:03 PM

Thanks for your opinion Fritz.
Good evening Petr.

**Fritz** · 09-02-2007, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Petr View Post

Thanks for your opinion Fritz.
Good evening Petr.

Petr,
the longer I look at them the more I do believe they are the final version of zelts that lacked all of the buttons and button holes, someone then added them at a later stage. I think I can see that the buttons and button holes aren't in one line, also the type of thread that was used, I think it was done maybe in the field or after the war.

Thanks!

Fritz

**Petr** · 09-02-2007, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by Fritz View Post

Petr,
the longer I look at them the more I do believe they are the final version of zelts that lacked all of the buttons and button holes, someone then added them at a later stage. I think I can see that the buttons and button holes aren't in one line, also the type of thread that was used, I think it was done maybe in the field or after the war.

Thanks!

Fritz

It could be a possibility,cause i found a few button holes just cut through and hemed by hand.
Have a look at this shot.
Fritz some more questions about SS zelts: 1/Have you seen an original wartime repair done by WHzelt on SS one?
2/Were wartime repairs done by round patches and the glue like WH ones ?
3/I have heard something about approval stamps on zelts when officialy repaired.Never seen it.Do you have any knowledge or an example to show please?
4/I have heard as for WH zelts that some officialy "floor" for the tent existed?Any informations?

**Petr** · 09-02-2007, 01:58 PM

http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/274...8778129_rs.jpg
Thanks Petr.

**Fritz** · 09-03-2007, 03:15 AM

Originally posted by Petr View Post

It could be a possibility,cause i found a few button holes just cut through and hemed by hand.
Have a look at this shot.
Fritz some more questions about SS zelts: 1/Have you seen an original wartime repair done by WHzelt on SS one?
2/Were wartime repairs done by round patches and the glue like WH ones ?
3/I have heard something about approval stamps on zelts when officialy repaired.Never seen it.Do you have any knowledge or an example to show please?
4/I have heard as for WH zelts that some officialy "floor" for the tent existed?Any informations?

1. First of all it is sometimes very hard to say whether a repair is period or not. I would tend to believe that some of the repairs using splinter material are period.

2. I know the glued on patches you are talking about, this can often be seen when small damages were repaired, some of these repairs are probably period and some are not. Zelts were very useful also after the war for civil use, this is probably were most zelts were "worn up".

Most of the "period" repairs I have seen were made using ss camo material and a sewing machine, or only by sewing the material again without adding extra material. In case extra material was used often the repair was much larger than required, let's say there was a 2 inch tear it would often be fixed using a 10x10inch patch.

3. No, I haven't seen such stamps yet...There is a large number of stamps that can be found on zelts...The Most common is probably "Warei", apparently the largest maker. Also Rb.Nr. stamps are common on later pieces, I have one oak zelt that has a stamp that reads "Werkstätten", maybe this is a KZ based maker, other not so common stamps can be found as well.

4. I think that if desired a 4th zelt was used to cover the ground.

Cheers

Fritz

**paulj** · 09-03-2007, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by Fritz View Post

That picture shows the so called "Grundlinie", this is the "buttom line" of the zelt, in the case of this zelt the material wasn't cut were it should have been cut, it was supposed to be cut between those block shaped prints. That picture shows a part of the cutting line very well, thanks for that!!

Fritz

As this is a later war zelt, perhaps the factory ordered the workers to disregard the Grundlinie in order to use as much of the material as possible.

Now I wish I had some of the SS Zelts I sold in the past to show but this is not my collecting area so these will be sold as well.

Attached Files

2003_0102Image0001.JPG (115.5 KB, 477 views)

**Fritz** · 09-03-2007, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by paulj View Post

As this is a later war zelt, perhaps the factory ordered the workers to disregard the Grundlinie in order to use as much of the material as possible.

Now I wish I had some of the SS Zelts I sold in the past to show but this is not my collecting area so these will be sold as well.

Actually you wouldn't safe material in case you only make zelts from the fabric, it doesn't matter how you cut it as the required form is always the same. But it will in any case save you time if you just cut the required triangle out of the material and don't look for the cutting lines....they probably folded the materail several times and then just made one cut and received quite a few zelt sections....With the old method you could only cut one layer at once if you wanted to work with great acuracy.

Thanks!

Fritz

**Petr** · 09-03-2007, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Fritz View Post

1. First of all it is sometimes very hard to say whether a repair is period or not. I would tend to believe that some of the repairs using splinter material are period.

2. I know the glued on patches you are talking about, this can often be seen when small damages were repaired, some of these repairs are probably period and some are not. Zelts were very useful also after the war for civil use, this is probably were most zelts were "worn up".

Most of the "period" repairs I have seen were made using ss camo material and a sewing machine, or only by sewing the material again without adding extra material. In case extra material was used often the repair was much larger than required, let's say there was a 2 inch tear it would often be fixed using a 10x10inch patch.

3. No, I haven't seen such stamps yet...There is a large number of stamps that can be found on zelts...The Most common is probably "Warei", apparently the largest maker. Also Rb.Nr. stamps are common on later pieces, I have one oak zelt that has a stamp that reads "Werkstätten", maybe this is a KZ based maker, other not so common stamps can be found as well.

4. I think that if desired a 4th zelt was used to cover the ground.

Cheers

Fritz

Thanks for your reply Fritz.
Petr.

**camo master** · 09-04-2007, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by paulj View Post

As this is a later war zelt, perhaps the factory ordered the workers to disregard the Grundlinie in order to use as much of the material as possible.

Now I wish I had some of the SS Zelts I sold in the past to show but this is not my collecting area so these will be sold as well.

Hi Paulj,
Im not sure there would be any savings in fabric if the cutters didnt follow the ground lines but more likely they saved alot of time. In garment terms, these prints are called engineered prints. The fabric roll is placed on a roller above a long cutting table, the fabric being spooled off as the roller moves down the table. Since these prints were different on the top and bottom the fabric would have to be cut once it reached the end of the table. The roll was then moved back down the table to start the process over but each successive fabric layer must be registered to the one under neath it. Depending on the factory and the size of the verticle cutting knives used, the fabric could be stacked 6", 8", 10" or 12" high. Having done a lot of cutting myself, it really saves a lot if you just move the roller back and forth on the table not worring about registration or even cutting each layer. Spring sides and fall sides of the prints would then be facing each other. This would result in the panels being cut with no respect to the printed patterns which is what we see on many of the miss matched non registered. I really find it facinating to look at all these miss matched panel and printing errors - 1) it give us a chance to see a part of the pattern that would normally be covered by the edge facings or cut off for the facings themselves and 2) it is a moment in time, particularily with printing errors, that can tells us what was happening in the factory at that particular instant. Weird maybe but I really enjoy it.

**camo master** · 09-05-2007, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by Fritz View Post

I am sorry that I can't give any names here, although one of them who told me that is a well known collector that contributed to the beaver book on ss camo. He is also on the forum, I think he doesn't collect camo anymore but maybe in case he reads this he could join this thread.

I am looking forward to any pics, maybe we weill get the chance to look at an period piece!

Thanks!!

Fritz

Ok Fritz, no problem, I'd be happy to do that.

Being new to this discussion group, are we allowed to give out email addresses here? I have something I would like to speak with you about and my interest in zelts.

Thanks again - this has been a most enjoyable thread.
Mark

**Fritz** · 09-05-2007, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by camo master View Post

Ok Fritz, no problem, I'd be happy to do that.

Being new to this discussion group, are we allowed to give out email addresses here? I have something I would like to speak with you about and my interest in zelts.

Thanks again - this has been a most enjoyable thread.
Mark

Yes, you can post your email address on the forum or you just send a PM (private message) to the person you want to talk to. The latter assures that your email remains unknown to the public.

Cheers

Fritz

**paulj** · 09-05-2007, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by camo master View Post

Hi Paulj,
Im not sure there would be any savings in fabric if the cutters didnt follow the ground lines but more likely they saved alot of time. In garment terms, these prints are called engineered prints. The fabric roll is placed on a roller above a long cutting table, the fabric being spooled off as the roller moves down the table. Since these prints were different on the top and bottom the fabric would have to be cut once it reached the end of the table. The roll was then moved back down the table to start the process over but each successive fabric layer must be registered to the one under neath it. Depending on the factory and the size of the verticle cutting knives used, the fabric could be stacked 6", 8", 10" or 12" high. Having done a lot of cutting myself, it really saves a lot if you just move the roller back and forth on the table not worring about registration or even cutting each layer. Spring sides and fall sides of the prints would then be facing each other. This would result in the panels being cut with no respect to the printed patterns which is what we see on many of the miss matched non registered. I really find it facinating to look at all these miss matched panel and printing errors - 1) it give us a chance to see a part of the pattern that would normally be covered by the edge facings or cut off for the facings themselves and 2) it is a moment in time, particularily with printing errors, that can tells us what was happening in the factory at that particular instant. Weird maybe but I really enjoy it.

This is fascinating. It also makes complete sense that production speed was the factor.

**werner p.** · 09-05-2007, 02:32 PM

quote :
3/I have heard something about approval stamps on zelts when officialy repaired.Never seen it.Do you have any knowledge or an example to show please?

check Militaria magazine nr 255 OF OCTOBER 2006 page 27, picture at the top left.
The stamp on the zeltbahn reads :

Instandgesetzt 1943
Fa. Paul Gerhus, Wansdorf-Sudetengau,
Kontrolle : III

So yes, stamps did exist and both SS and Wehrmacht ( and LW and KM) had repair factories.
All cloth equipment/uniforms were repaired.
The Reitz factory had a special repair factory at Riga Latvia. Although they worked with forced labour there, they managed to restore/repair about 65 % of what was send to them.

And for all of you who might be interested on the zeltbahn subject, a new book is coming up next year that will bundle all known knowledge so far about the zeltbahn. And of course some so far unknown or undocumented features will be unveiled in it.

Patience !

**Fritz** · 09-05-2007, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by werner p. View Post

quote :
3/I have heard something about approval stamps on zelts when officialy repaired.Never seen it.Do you have any knowledge or an example to show please?

check Militaria magazine nr 255 OF OCTOBER 2006 page 27, picture at the top left.
The stamp on the zeltbahn reads :

Instandgesetzt 1943
Fa. Paul Gerhus, Wansdorf-Sudetengau,
Kontrolle : III

So yes, stamps did exist and both SS and Wehrmacht ( and LW and KM) had repair factories.
All cloth equipment/uniforms were repaired.
The Reitz factory had a special repair factory at Riga Latvia. Although they worked with forced labour there, they managed to restore/repair about 65 % of what was send to them.

And for all of you who might be interested on the zeltbahn subject, a new book is coming up next year that will bundle all known knowledge so far about the zeltbahn. And of course some so far unknown or undocumented features will be unveiled in it.

Patience !

Very interesting! No doubt items were repaired on factory level, the majority of the zelts must have been repaired in the field though or didn't receive a stamp like the above when they were repaired in a factory. I am aware that a large number of the repairs was done post war, so I am only reffering to the ones using period material and sewing techniques. Perhaps a member can post a picture of such a stamp, it would be interesting to see one.

Thanks!

Fritz

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