SS Panzer Wrap

[John Pic]

Far from being gleeful over this. Regarding Mr. Singer he has nothing to proove although he has just shown the community what a true gentleman he really is.
I cant say Im not seething angry over this type of fraud of which we the serious collector, regardless of experience are the victim of these people.

I think that people need to be satisfied with the SS uniforms they find that actually were SS uniforms even if they were restored at some point. I think also that the prices on the unproven pieces need some serious thought behind them to keep this hobby in check for future generations.

[hs132]

Hello, I may have not made it clear enough, the jacket itself is a high grade post war made piece, sadly. Bill

[John Pic]

Thanks for clarifying that,everyones judgment except for one or two people, was off on this one including myself, I thought all the parts were original.

[Felix]

So, not even the jacket is original?

Im sure this is the top of the ice berg and a lot of original SS jackets would follow the same path if scrutinized like this in most excellent and interesting thread!

An input by Mr Bob Coleman would be interesting!

[Dennis J]

wrap around

This has and I guess will be a long thread with many people liking the tunic and just as many not liking the tunic.I really do not know because I do not collect SS tunics but I have been collecting for a long time(47 years)and can tell you for a fact that a tunic like this back in the 50s and 60s was not that easy to find with all the insg in place as a matter of fact back then it brought a good price as all SS items did.Did people fake them back then hell yea they did, were a lot of the fakes made to look like movie props oh hell some of them were just down right funny But there were people back then that were very good at putting on orig. insg on a stripped tunic.I have seen some of the tunics that Charlie Snyder had put together back then that are in peoples collections today and they swear that this is a real untouched tunic to this day and have had big name collectors look at them and swear that they were untouched tunics to this day.I have seen first hand people put orig. helmet decals on helmets back in the 50s and 60s because back then as today a collector looked for the same thing as they do now a helmet in exc. with decals the same with tunics a true COLLECTOR would look for all the things as they do now.If you found out that your tunic,helmet was a fake you tried to get your money back if the person that sold the tunic to you would not give you back your money(if you were a true COLLECTOR and not a ripp off)you took that tunic,helmet etc to all the gun shows and told everybody where you got it and how you know it is a fake.We did not have the internet back in those days but we had word of mouth and that woked very well among collectors and their friends you ask anybody if a piece was bad everybody in the country that went to gun shows knew about that tunic etc.One forum member say's he knows George Peterson.I knew George when he worked in northen Virginia and had only 2 Luft. tunics in his collection.I have seen George and the guy who use to own Globe Militaria and Charlie Snyder have a ton of ORIG.WW2 stripped uniforms that people bought and had orig. ins put on them.I had a orig STRIPPED SS tunic that I took to Ted Lenkels wife in NJ and had her put orig SS insg on it the way I wanted it. Mrs Lenkel was a seamstress(so the story goes) in a work camp in Germany during WW2.I called this tunic a hanger a real stripped tunic with orig. SS insg.and a lot of loops for medals just the way I wanted it.To make this story even more far out was the FACT that Ted and his wife were Jewish.As I said I do not know if the story about her being in a work camp or not was true but the one thing I do know for a fact that she was a German jewish lady and a master seamstress and that a lot of dealers would send tunics to her so she could work her magic.I sat right there with her as she put my tunic together and told me stories of how they did this back in Germany and how I could tell the difference from a US seamstress to one that was taught the trade in Germany.Some of the insg. that I had for MY tunic was as she said not right for that year tunic and would get the right insg and put it on for me and send me the tunic when it was ready.Oh yea this was 1962.So please don't tell me that they did not know what they were doing back in the day.
I know one thing that if I or any collector had a tunic as long as Mr. Singer has had it and has been collecting SS items as long as he has I would not have keep this tinic as long as he did if it was not what I thought it was I would have told everybody that this was a orig. tunic with proper insg. applied post war and it would have been out of collection as soon as I found out.As far as the POW story goes that could or could not be true and was the story told to Mr.Singer.I do not know Mr.Singer but I have heard good things about him so I don't think he would try to ripp somebody off because he has been in the hobby a long time and he does not have a bad rep and he knows his hobby.A thing like this would not help his many many years of collecting and would ruin his creditability.
Then here we go just because someone is from the old school that does not mean that he or she can not be fooled.I know I have been fooled a number of times.




Enjoy your hobby
Dennis J

As I said they had very good fakers back then. I said I did not know if it was good or not I don't collect SS wraps.Mr. Singer found out that he had been had and did not hide it but came out with it.
So because of this thread the truth came out about this wrap after all these years and nobody else will get ripped off.This speaks very well of this forum.

Enjoy your hobby
Dennis J

[bnz. 42]

I examined this wrapper about 1979 and thought it was spectacular, for whatever reason the owner then proudly stated he had it made using origional insignia from his collection.

Hello, I may have not made it clear enough, the jacket itself is a high grade post war made piece, sadly. Bill

I just realized that I fall in love with the term "text-book".

[jacquesf]

This disclosure by Bryon took some guts. I can respect that. Jacques

[BenVK]

Can I ask a question of the uniform collectors? My area is hats and it takes up all my time so tunics, jackets etc will have to wait a few years...
Anyway, the issue of whether the insignia is original to the garment is all important and not post war applied. It's seems to me that it's extremely difficult if not impossible to tell in most cases. Why does this distract so much from the collectability of the piece? Let's talk about SS visor caps for an instance, I would not care if the insignia looked as if they were added later or even fake in fact. The cap itself is the important factor. Sure it's nice to find ones with badges so encrusted on that it leaves no doubt (one i found had a dead spider behind the skull that looked at least 60 years old for sure) but it's just a bonus.
So, if the uniform is real, the insignia is real, does it really matter that much when it was applied based on knowing that most were stripped by their original owners almost immeadiately after surrendering? (as the previous camp photos prove to a degree)
Just curious..

[NTZ]

Byron you are a true class act. I am sorry to hear the story end this way.

Nick

[derka]

hello,

i'm very sorry to learn this story's end.
it's a lesson for all of us that we shall not forget.
as Mr Singer's behaviour,
sign of a true collector and a gentleman who deserve respect.

regards
derka

[tgn]

Hello, I may have not made it clear enough, the jacket itself is a high grade post war made piece, sadly. Bill

Gosh Bill, this is astonishing information! Do you just happen to have photos of this guy actually making the jacket? I bet you do, if you look through your "older collector" collection. Hard to believe that anyone could make this wrap from scratch with the attention to details that were lacking in much later attempts to fake wraps.

And what about the "P" on the back? Can you shed some light on that as well? I just had breakfast with Kurt, and he confirmed again that when he was shown the jacket at the record shop, it had remnants of what looked like a white "P" on the back. He said the fellow that sold it to him cleaned the back before he finally sent it to him, i.e. after Kurt finished paying for it.

Tom

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” John 8:32"

[Fritz]

Can I ask a question of the uniform collectors? My area is hats and it takes up all my time so tunics, jackets etc will have to wait a few years...
Anyway, the issue of whether the insignia is original to the garment is all important and not post war applied. It's seems to me that it's extremely difficult if not impossible to tell in most cases. Why does this distract so much from the collectability of the piece? Let's talk about SS visor caps for an instance, I would not care if the insignia looked as if they were added later or even fake in fact. The cap itself is the important factor. Sure it's nice to find ones with badges so encrusted on that it leaves no doubt (one i found had a dead spider behind the skull that looked at least 60 years old for sure) but it's just a bonus.
So, if the uniform is real, the insignia is real, does it really matter that much when it was applied based on knowing that most were stripped by their original owners almost immeadiately after surrendering? (as the previous camp photos prove to a degree)
Just curious..

I think it's a matter of taste...some preffer much cheaper restored tunics others preffer to spend the big money on so called untouched ones...There are not only collectors who want untouched pieces, I think there are quite a few that are happy with restored ones...They also get the extra plus of a worry-free ownership because they know that their item is restored...The owner of the "untouched ones" won't get that little "extra". It's more or less a matter of "belief" as far as the "untouched" ones are concerned. IMO you can never be sure to 100% with these anyway...You can be "quite sure" when it came directly from a vet or a vet estate. But in most cases these items don't come directly from there.

Cheers

Fritz

[John Pic]

Some important lessons

1. Even in hands a tunic can fool the best of the best.
2. Judging an item just by its make up alone in photos is at the very least impossible.
3.Learn to recognize real age in hand and the consitency that for the most part goes with it, and can not be shown in photos but only seen in hands on inspections.
4.If your buying an item just based on who's hands its passed through you still need to scrutinize it extra carefully.

For years over on another forum I tried to discuss such fraud openly.Knowing that I was among the sharks.I was ridiculed,humiliated,had my posts cut short and locked or deleted..was tagged with the reputation of being a big mouth, malcontent, know it all ,dealer basher ,you name it the tag was stuck to my back.Ive had two threads here where I had to defend my own tunics from being trashed by well meaning people who had earned very good reputations as forum appraisers, they no doubt have a strong knowledge,but just needed to excercise a bit of care..I lost it on both of them and I apologize to all who read my threads and this one for seemingly being a pot stirring "pig that cant be taught to sing".

[Felix]

Can I ask a question of the uniform collectors? My area is hats and it takes up all my time so tunics, jackets etc will have to wait a few years...
Anyway, the issue of whether the insignia is original to the garment is all important and not post war applied. It's seems to me that it's extremely difficult if not impossible to tell in most cases. Why does this distract so much from the collectability of the piece? Let's talk about SS visor caps for an instance, I would not care if the insignia looked as if they were added later or even fake in fact. The cap itself is the important factor. Sure it's nice to find ones with badges so encrusted on that it leaves no doubt (one i found had a dead spider behind the skull that looked at least 60 years old for sure) but it's just a bonus.
So, if the uniform is real, the insignia is real, does it really matter that much when it was applied based on knowing that most were stripped by their original owners almost immeadiately after surrendering? (as the previous camp photos prove to a degree)
Just curious..

About USD 20.000 in this case I would say! (provided I have understood the approx price of USD 40.000 correctly) ... if the now the jacket itself is original??

It matters tremendously to myself and most likely to a lot of others. I also believe that an original SS officer panzer jacket with or without insignias are more rare than an original visor cap with or without insignias. I would also like to believe that untouched SS visor caps with original insignias left are very rare. But they were easier to grab, and more attractive, and place in a bag than a jacket. Original untouched jackets are therefore extremely rare!

The application of original insignias to a visor cap might be more accepted it seems like. I might accept one myself, but for a more realistic price.

[Felix]

Some important lessons

1. Even in hands a tunic can fool the best of the best.
2. Judging an item just by its make up alone in photos is at the very least impossible.
3.Learn to recognize real age in hand and the consitency that for the most part goes with it, and can not be shown in photos but only seen in hands on inspections.
4.If your buying an item just based on who's hands its passed through you still need to scrutinize it extra carefully.

For years over on another forum I tried to discuss such fraud openly.Knowing that I was among the sharks.I was ridiculed,humiliated,had my posts cut short and locked or deleted..was tagged with the reputation of being a big mouth, malcontent, know it all ,dealer basher ,you name it the tag was stuck to my back.Ive had two threads here where I had to defend my own tunics from being trashed by well meaning people who had earned very good reputations as forum appraisers, they no doubt have a strong knowledge,but just needed to excercise a bit of care..I lost it on both of them and I apologize to all who read my threads and this one for seemingly being a pot stirring "pig that cant be taught to sing".

Even from the photos its appearent that the collar tabs have different wear and one might therefore suspect they have been changed at some point. Im surprised that so many missed it. However youre totally correct that hands one are not even enough, and can fool the best ones. Its time for us to realize what a problematic hobby we are into. Those who believe they know it all fool themselves. I might have been on deep water because I assuemd the jacket was ok (with a replaced liner), and judging from other comments (do we still know??) but my knowledge is mainly on the insignias. No one knows it all! Just be humble to what the wisdome learns us.

Top of the ice berg!