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**BenVK** · 06-26-2007, 10:41 AM

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**djpool** · 06-26-2007, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by Bob Coleman View Post

It Is Interesting How Some Of The Younger Members Seem To Think They Are "entitled" To Answers On Their Questions-even When Some Of Those Issues Have Been Addressed Previously In This Thread. No One Involved With This Thread Is The Current Owner Of This Piece. I Would Venture A Guess That Many Of Those Who Have Responded In The Negative To This Piece Were Not Collecting At The Time This Piece Was Aquired. Therefore, They Have No First Hand Knowledge Of The State Of Collecting In The 70's Or The Level Of Fakery In The Market Place. However, They Feel Fully Confident To Strongly Comment On Things Of Which They Have No First Hand Knowledge. By Today's Standards Of Collecting, The Only Way Any Relic Can Be Accepted As Original Would Be If You Were The Vet And Picked It Up Personally While Still In The Service. I Do Not Find This A Very Promising Criteria For Further Collecting. Study Of Materials, Construction Techniques And Provenance Are All Important.
Bryon And Tom, As Bob Hritz Once Said To Me "don't Try And Make A Pig Sing."

Now I think we're namedropping. What if the names used were Jim Haley, Bill Petz, Reise House all very serious long time collectors, would anyone stand up and defend them. I think thats whats rubbing me the wrong way (It has nothing to do with the wrap, I love field made, modified items), is my perception that other items haven't been given the same consideration because no big name can be attached to it. Sometimes I wonder if us no name collectors are allowed to anything rare? The tunic is what it is- if its bad using GOD as provenance won't make it original or if its good having any "expert" condemn it shouldn't make it bad (unfortunately thats not always the case).

I also take exception to the young/old comment. I've known several young collectors that could run rings around all of his. This also implies that us old collectors (I've got 30+ years under my belt) have got the corner on knowledge and they should accept anything we say.Nonsense. We have an obligation to help the young guys,teach them so they can make their own decisions about originality. I think we're the ones that have pounded this textbook crap into them. I know I have only because I tell them if they want to trade or sell down the road its better to stick to textbook.

WR Jim

**BlackBelt** · 06-26-2007, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by djpool View Post

Now I think we're namedropping. What if the names used were Jim Haley, Bill Petz, Reise House all very serious long time collectors, would anyone stand up and defend them. I think thats whats rubbing me the wrong way (It has nothing to do with the wrap, I love field made, modified items), is my perception that other items haven't been given the same consideration because no big name can be attached to it. Sometimes I wonder if us no name collectors are allowed to anything rare? The tunic is what it is- if its bad using GOD as provenance won't make it original or if its good having any "expert" condemn it shouldn't make it bad (unfortunately thats not always the case).

I also take exception to the young/old comment. I've known several young collectors that could run rings around all of his. This also implies that us old collectors (I've got 30+ years under my belt) have got the corner on knowledge and they should aceept anything we say.Nonsense. We have an obligation to help the young guys,teach them so they can make their own decisions about originality. I think we're the ones that have pounded this textbook crap into them. I know I have only because I tell them if they want to trade or sell down the road its better to stick to textbook.

WR Jim

Very well said.

**B. N. Singer** · 06-26-2007, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by BenVK View Post

Bryon, you always keep you cards very close to your chest on this forum and like I've said before, it's frustrating but it's your choice and I can respect that. I also know or hope to think that you have equal respect for us young guns.

Ben, as strange as it might sound, my belief is that not all people are deserving of respect (in life or this hobby); it is the same as trust, you Earn it!!!

And yes, you have proven by your postings and knowledge, that (to me) you deserve respect.

B. N. Singer

**John Pic** · 06-26-2007, 11:08 AM

Wow BenVK youre one of the lucky ones. Youve earned respect.

Sorry Mr. Singer I couldnt resisit, I understand what you say but on forums no one knows the other person and Ive found that often the forum personality doesnt match the person in life. I respect people after I learn about them not by just knowledge shown.Just my own input on that although being in Law Enforcement tends to make one cynical.

**Bob Hritz** · 06-26-2007, 11:14 AM

Never try to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time and annoys the pig!

This is the quote to which Bob Coleman made reference. It is a favrite of a very wise woman I know.

My only knowledge of the tunic is that Kurt owned it, in the 1970s and that it came from Arizona, and that it was obtained from someone who was involved in a POW camp. I don't know if a POW camp in the US or Germany, and did not know that Bryon obtained the tunic from Kurt.

I wish I could provide further information, but I am sorry to say I cannot.

I suppose if you were to personally inspect the tunic, a better judgement would be garnered. I know Bryon is about as skeptical as anyone I know and that is enough for me to believe that Bryon had most possitive feelings, on this tunic.

Sadly, this has turned into a bit of a roundhouse, but what is known, by those who have posted, is that the tunic was found in Arizona, in the 1970s, that Kurt had it and that Bryon owned it until recently. The Great Kreskin is not here, today, so I suppose there will be no forthcoming information.

I can't PROVE my father was my father. However, he was an honorable man and I just took his word for it. I take Bryon's, Tom's and Kurt's with the same seriousness. For the many items I have gotten from vets, all I will be able to offer is my WORD, not PROOF. I would hope my word is taken at face value.

Personal agendas of destruction have taken much of this thread. It is sad to see it deteriorate to the point where honorable men are attacked and lightly veiled accusations of chicanery are bandied about. I stand with my friends on this and take their words as true. Believe what you wish, but I will stand with Bryon and Tom as I know the history of the piece, if only from the 1970s. Be advised that I have no personal finincial interest in the tunic and have never owned it. I just hate to see the good reputation of honorable men being besmirched.

Bob Hritz

**NTZ** · 06-26-2007, 11:21 AM

Oh hell, I feel compelled to jump in one more time. Regarding the old/new collectors I guess I would be considered new. I started collecting Third Reich visors around 1989 or 1990 and then shortly after jumped into uniforms. Interestingly enough I get a handful of emails everyday asking if I could take a look at visors. Some of those emails come from collectors who have been collecting since the 1960’s and some are pretty well known. My guess is they are just looking for a fresh set of eyes for a second opinion. Anyway the point is I don’t think time in the hobby is everything, although it is an advantage that is for sure.

I don’t think Bob meant to come off that way. It is not his style. I have even had that very conversation with him off line.

**BlackBelt** · 06-26-2007, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post

Never try to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time and annoys the pig!

This is the quote to which Bob Coleman made reference. It is a favrite of a very wise woman I know.

My only knowledge of the tunic is that Kurt owned it, in the 1970s and that it came from Arizona, and that it was obtained from someone who was involved in a POW camp. I don't know if a POW camp in the US or Germany, and did not know that Bryon obtained the tunic from Kurt.

I wish I could provide further information, but I am sorry to say I cannot.

I suppose if you were to personally inspect the tunic, a better judgement would be garnered. I know Bryon is about as skeptical as anyone I know and that is enough for me to believe that Bryon had most possitive feelings, on this tunic.

Sadly, this has turned into a bit of a roundhouse, but what is known, by those who have posted, is that the tunic was found in Arizona, in the 1970s, that Kurt had it and that Bryon owned it until recently. The Great Kreskin is not here, today, so I suppose there will be no forthcoming information.

I can't PROVE my father was my father. However, he was an honorable man and I just took his word for it. I take Bryon's, Tom's and Kurt's with the same seriousness. For the many items I have gotten from vets, all I will be able to offer is my WORD, not PROOF. I would hope my word is taken at face value.

Personal agendas of destruction have taken much of this thread. It is sad to see it deteriorate to the point where honorable men are attacked and lightly veiled accusations of chicanery are bandied about. I stand with my friends on this and take their words as true. Believe what you wish, but I will stand with Bryon and Tom as I know the history of the piece, if only from the 1970s. Be advised that I have no personal finincial interest in the tunic and have never owned it. I just hate to see the good reputation of honorable men being besmirched.

Bob Hritz

Bob,

I respect your frankness on the subject, and for trying to shed any available light on the tunic in quesiton. I do have to comment on some of your message.

After reading your post, it would seem that although you acknowledge that a hands on inpsection is necassary, you then say that your friends word is enough for you. So which is it? your friends word that has convinced you of the authentisity, or the hands on inspection. Honorable men, are men that are always truthful, and forthcoming. Not men who use cryptic, loathing comments to either prove a point, or dissuade a conversation. There is no implication in my comment to suggest people here are not honorable, simply ellusive.

The history on the tunic as gone from: Absolutely came from a POW camp in Arizona to "Some campt not sure if it was in the states." From a definite "P" painted on the tunic, to now know one is sure. From bad fakes in the 1970's only available, to people who have seen good fakes back to the 1950's. From being worn in a POW camp to "was obtained from someone that had something to do with POW camps."

Now I am partialy quoting you, and parapharsing other there, but the idea is the same. The only reasonable conclusion one could draw from this discussion is that the tunic is most likely a put-together from original parts, and thats that. Big deal. Does it detract from its rarity...not to me, but it certainly would be the last wrap I would by if offered. Bottom line, there really is no provenance on the tunic at all, it has simply floated from one person to another for 30+ years. All the people who have owned it sold it up to now, so there is no way in the world that they would admit a mistake, becuase they would have to cough up the return money. Considering that the big deal was a:

100% UNTOUCHED POW aquired Panzer tunic

which is what drove the monsterous/ outrageos price tag, there is no way we "yougen's" will ever get any other insight. Only the ramblings of he said/ she said, and oh its old, therefore its real.

**PANZERPIONIERE** · 06-26-2007, 11:40 AM

I have a question for Bryon about the lining. Is the old lining covered up with another or completely re-lined? I see where in the pictures it shows horizontal pocket openings 3/4 covered up. Almost looks to me from the pictures parts of two linings.
I was just wondering, personally I like this wrapper, and would really like to see it in person.
Thanks Steve

**John Pic** · 06-26-2007, 11:46 AM

"My only knowledge of the tunic is that Kurt owned it, in the 1970s and that it came from Arizona, and that it was obtained from someone who was involved in a POW camp. I don't know if a POW camp in the US or Germany, and did not know that Bryon obtained the tunic from Kurt."

Why on earth was this such a big secret if it helps in the proof of the tunics history?

Its a reasonable story...all this bantering back and forth and questions and secret PMs for this simple story of the tunics origin?

The person who related this story to me with so much secrecy couldve just posted it and the thread wopuldve stayed on the tunic.Its not one mans reputation at stake its everyones who gets involved in these threads because thoughts are made public for the sake of finding anwers.

You cant keep a wolf away from the sheep without a good sheepdog.. Thats what an old Navajo told me.

**tgn** · 06-26-2007, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post

Never try to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time and annoys the pig!

This is the quote to which Bob Coleman made reference. It is a favrite of a very wise woman I know.

My only knowledge of the tunic is that Kurt owned it, in the 1970s and that it came from Arizona, and that it was obtained from someone who was involved in a POW camp. I don't know if a POW camp in the US or Germany, and did not know that Bryon obtained the tunic from Kurt.

I wish I could provide further information, but I am sorry to say I cannot.

I suppose if you were to personally inspect the tunic, a better judgement would be garnered. I know Bryon is about as skeptical as anyone I know and that is enough for me to believe that Bryon had most possitive feelings, on this tunic.

Sadly, this has turned into a bit of a roundhouse, but what is known, by those who have posted, is that the tunic was found in Arizona, in the 1970s, that Kurt had it and that Bryon owned it until recently. The Great Kreskin is not here, today, so I suppose there will be no forthcoming information.

I can't PROVE my father was my father. However, he was an honorable man and I just took his word for it. I take Bryon's, Tom's and Kurt's with the same seriousness. For the many items I have gotten from vets, all I will be able to offer is my WORD, not PROOF. I would hope my word is taken at face value.

Personal agendas of destruction have taken much of this thread. It is sad to see it deteriorate to the point where honorable men are attacked and lightly veiled accusations of chicanery are bandied about. I stand with my friends on this and take their words as true. Believe what you wish, but I will stand with Bryon and Tom as I know the history of the piece, if only from the 1970s. Be advised that I have no personal finincial interest in the tunic and have never owned it. I just hate to see the good reputation of honorable men being besmirched.

Bob Hritz

Thank you, Bob

Blackbelt, whoever you are, it is clear you don't like the wrap and you don't like the people involved with it. No matter what is said, you twist it around to some conspiracy. So we will just leave it at that. I will continue to try to find out more about this wrap, but mainly for my own edification...Tom

**BlackBelt** · 06-26-2007, 12:00 PM

"Thank you, Bob

Blackbelt, whoever you are, it is clear you don't like the wrap and you don't like the people involved with it. No matter what is said, you twist it around to some conspiracy. So we will just leave it at that. I will continue to try to find out more about this wrap, but mainly for my own edification...Tom"

Tom,

First off you are correct that I don't like the wrap enough to ever consider a purchase. That withstanding if you read my last post, you will see quite clearly that I said I believed it was put together from ORIGINAL parts, and that its rarity was still high.

2nd I do not appreciate you putting words into my mouth about my feelings toward anyone involved with the tunic. With the exception of your comments, not one person who owned the tunic attacked me personaly. I may not have liked their attitudes toward other collectors, or the lack of reliable info on this thread, does not suggest my feelings as a whole. I in fact respect both Bob's, and Mr. Singer. So please limit your ideas to yourself, and not me.

**Bob Hritz** · 06-26-2007, 12:01 PM

Blackbelt,

I am saying a hands on inspection is necessary, if the person diong the hands on inspection has great expertise in that particular type of garment. My doing a hands on inspection, of a panzer tunic, would not be as well done or thorough as that of someone who has studied panzer tunics, for his adult lifetime. I would ask Bryon to inspect a tunic of the panzer type. He has my full confidence and I am aware of the many tunics he has had the privelege to inspect.

Again, the tracing of any item back to 1945 is only a series of stories. In a decade of running ads, all over the country, I have only photographed a few lots and veterans. All I could offer is my word, which can be taken for whatever weight the buyer wishes. I still believe the piece must stand on it's own merits and no story or provenance adds a single cent to the value of anything.

You will note some dealers only have rare medals attibuted to known awardees. This is of what I speak. The provenance is only a tracking of one story linked to another story, trying to go back as far as possible. Attributions and vet stories add to the history of a piece, not to it's value or price.

The current owner may ask what he wants for his property. None of have any control, except to say 'NO" or "Yes". The power to set prices is totally in control of the collector. Nothing is sold until someone agrees to a price. I think the price of the tunic has no bearing on the authenticity, lineage, or provenance, if any.

Sorry that my answers have dissapointed you, but I do not believe that any answer will bring you satisfaction.

Bob Hritz

**tgn** · 06-26-2007, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by PANZERPIONIERE View Post

I have a question for Bryon about the lining. Is the old lining covered up with another or completely re-lined? I see where in the pictures it shows horizontal pocket openings 3/4 covered up. Almost looks to me from the pictures parts of two linings.
I was just wondering, personally I like this wrapper, and would really like to see it in person.
Thanks Steve

Maybe something should be clarified. I just looked at this piece yesterday. The wrap was never re-lined. It is a non-issue wrap made from higher quality wool using lining material from probably an overcoat. The entire garment was made as one. Both the outside and inside show consistent wear...Tom

**John Pic** · 06-26-2007, 12:08 PM

BlackBelt better to just let it go..you will keep getting the same answers.

The whole thread has been about old pots calling young kettles black.

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