SS Panzer Wrap

[BlackBelt]

Blackbelt,

I am saying a hands on inspection is necessary, if the person diong the hands on inspection has great expertise in that particular type of garment. My doing a hands on inspection, of a panzer tunic, would not be as well done or thorough as that of someone who has studied panzer tunics, for his adult lifetime. I would ask Bryon to inspect a tunic of the panzer type. He has my full confidence and I am aware of the many tunics he has had the privelege to inspect.

Again, the tracing of any item back to 1945 is only a series of stories. In a decade of running ads, all over the country, I have only photographed a few lots and veterans. All I could offer is my word, which can be taken for whatever weight the buyer wishes. I still believe the piece must stand on it's own merits and no story or provenance adds a single cent to the value of anything.

You will note some dealers only have rare medals attibuted to known awardees. This is of what I speak. The provenance is only a tracking of one story linked to another story, trying to go back as far as possible. Attributions and vet stories add to the history of a piece, not to it's value or price.

The current owner may ask what he wants for his property. None of have any control, except to say 'NO" or "Yes". The power to set prices is totally in control of the collector. Nothing is sold until someone agrees to a price. I think the price of the tunic has no bearing on the authenticity, lineage, or provenance, if any.

Sorry that my answers have dissapointed you, but I do not believe that any answer will bring you satisfaction.

Bob Hritz

On the contrary I feel your response was very well done, and I appreciate it. I agree that stories are stories, but the intention of the story is to be used as a checks & balance system for the owner. Its direct link back to the vet himself. I agree 100% items should stand on their own, but lets face it, thus far this one does not to most here who have not owned it, nor handled it. Maybe in person there is a lot more to it, but as far as what has been shown, and said there does not appear to be. Had this tunic been part of someone elses collection from Latvia, "old time collectors" would ahve torn it a new one. Had this tunic come from David Delich then it would heralded as an "ultra rare" example. This point was made by more people than myself.

[Bob Hritz]

John P,

No conspiracy of silence here. I made a few calls and sent a few emails to make sure the tunic was the one I saw at Kurt's was the same tunic. It was jhanding, from a coat hanger, on the wall, with his other tunics. I heard the story, back then, and didn,t pay much mind, as I did not have any interest in tunics, only insignia. Nothing was so rare, on the tunic, that I didn't own a similar insignia (I still have that insignia!).

I sure do not believe in comspiracy stories, but I also respect the privacy of others. No one here has the authority ro right to demand answers of anyone. this is not an inquisition, but a place of learning. I find learning goes much better with manners and politeness, rather than nasty inuendos and twisting of words.

I have had enough of this and am sorry I ever tried to be helpful. In the future, I will be more careful with my help, on anything posted.

Bob Hritz

[tgn]

I in fact respect both Bob's, and Mr. Singer.

You respect them? Since you don't believe what they tell you about the history or originality of this wrap, then you must either think they are liars or just fools that were duped on an old fake.

So in what way do you respect them?

[BlackBelt]

You respect them? Since you don't believe what they tell you about the history or originality of this wrap, then you must either think they are liars or just fools that were duped on an old fake.

So in what way do you respect them?

Did I ever say I did not believe them? I did I say specificly that the story does not add up, thus far can not be verified, and their could be hidden agendas in the tunic hisotry. That is not calling people liars, its simple deductive reasoning based on presented info, and past experiences in the hobby. I suggest you stick to what you know, and enjoy your hunt. I am sure most can read between the lines, and understand the difference between calling someone a liar, vs wanting to see proof in their statements. You may not have questions, good for you, I along with others here have, and still have. I beleive I hear the shepard, so you better get moving.

[tgn]

Did I ever say I did not believe them? I did I say specificly that the story does not add up, thus far can not be verified, and their could be hidden agendas in the tunic hisotry. That is not calling people liars, its simple deductive reasoning based on presented info, and past experiences in the hobby. I suggest you stick to what you know, and enjoy your hunt. I am sure most can read between the lines, and understand the difference between calling someone a liar, vs wanting to see proof in their statements. You may not have questions, good for you, I along with others here have, and still have. I beleive I hear the shepard, so you better get moving.

Actually, that was a reasonable response. There is certainly more to learn about this story...Tom

[John Pic]

My "innuendos" come from stories related to me by people I respect. They just cant stomach it and refrain from posting. Nice guys. I was through being a nice guy long ago.

I naver once said this is a "conspiricy" that word was thrown in by people who like the tunic and yourself.

Ive been around the block as a metro cop you should know what that means..Im no young buckeroo as is often insinuated. I still deal with addicts,dealers,pimps,hookers.con-artists on a regular basis.

Just as people who know each other from your neck of the woods there are people I know and we all talk about the hobby behind the scenes away from the forums.I dont have to use innuendos I could just come right out and finger point at people but I dont. I try my best to keep names out. But when those same people use a condescending attitude towards me or anyone else for that matter. I get irritated,in person Im always a nice guy and ignore condescending people.But on forums its almost impossible for me perhaps thats my native heritage... I already have a built in distrust for the culture taught to me by my elders.Gary pointed out to me that I need to tone it down a bit and he is right.

I throw up my hands...its gone nowhere fast.Like I said and this is not innuendo...I dont know who to believe or trust anymore here..Ive lost alot of good faith in the expertise and ethics of some in this hobby.

I am entertaining a thousand doubts.

As a philosophical side note ..Grant,Sherman,Chivington,Custer,Miles and others all tried to teach "Pigs to sing" but look what happened.

[leigh]

Can i just add some wood to the fire.

It is well known that medal manufacturers continued to produce medals almost as soon as the war ended in 1945 to feed the demand for them from the allied forces.

Could it there for be reasonable to say that the same could have been for uniforms. I am sure that there was plenty of military outfitters so to speak with the knowledge and exsperties to do so. And may i add with plentifull supplies of stock, from old uniforms, bolts of cloth etc etc. That would have still been around

I know what people will say why get someone to make something that was readily available, as with the medals. if your after a special piece why look for it when you can get someone to make it. (someone who may have made the originals) And considering the state of germany at wars end for not a lot of money, alcohol food either.

And you have to remember the german army was in captivity, and not all vets were guarding them. So it may not have been that easy to comeby what you were after.

Personally i do not have the money or the space to collect uniforms. And have no idea if this jacket is good or not. Medals flick my switch. just once i started reading this thread, and it took some time i thought i would add something

cheers leigh

[Felix]

To collect "untouched SS tunics" must be among the hardest things in this business.

Please think about this and try to answer in your own brain; (dont answer me - if you can, then its ok!)
1 - Can we be sure the guy who found the tunic is straight forward and dont tell us a fairy tail? Vets never lies or other guys? There are already flaws in the story about the P or what ever painted or not symbol.
2 - Why did a high quality officer tunic get a recycled and new size stamped lining when it was quite likely done by a private tailor? Why not use an enslited quality jacket and upgrade it? Any logical reasons?
3 - Why is there a different wear on the collar tabs than the tunic itself? Look again at the photos if you think Im wrong. The wear on the sleeve eagle is more consistent.
4 - Some big name guys who has seen and owned this tunic speak in favour of it. Do they belive purely in the provenance or in the tunic itself?
5 - people who has only seen the tunic briefly speaks strongly in favour of it whereas us newer guys mostly see the critical points. As a lot have been tought to reason by the older collectors. I still think its a matter of old time thinking versus the new ones that is litterature and internet eduacated. A lot of us have develeped an eye for details old stouts never would care to do. Because back then all things were original and no need for this. Or?? Today we know different and some older collectibles are scrutinized in another way and sometimes we come to another conclusion. On the other hand you have seen a lot of originals that gives a feeling that cant be told from books or internet.
6 - If it would have been shown by me it would have got fat thumbs down by everyone faster than speed of light. One might ask why? For sure I trust the opinions of a lot of the senoir and experienced collectors here. But some of them have only heard a roumor and choose this as prof. If the tunic would have been sold by a "German dealer" it would have remain unsold and critized until Mr German dealer would have threatened with legal matters. Provenance seems to be more important than the tunic itself.
7 - From my knowledge few SS POW's had any insignias left whilt in temporary camps in Germany on the way to another country. Any one seen camp photos of SS soldiers still wearing their insignas? In USA?
8 - Good points by number of mostly newer breed collectors that is taken as insults by a lot of the older guard collectors who cant explain common questions often asked for a tunic like this.

Some things speaks in favour and other things speaks against. Im just a novice collector so who cares about what I write? I do... and hopefully some of the people I have helped also does.

"Felix" - N. Hansson

P.s. Bob Coleman; I can give you an advice - If you want to know anything about SS metal insignias, you might consult a rather fresh collector into this field; BWanek. Or maybe his opinions is just bullsh.. because he has not been collecting metal insignias since the 1960's? Im thinking of stopping to give comments myself because obviously my opinions are false because Im too fresh into this hobby. Give me break!!
D.S I will NOT stop!!
2nd D.S. Bob Coleman I still do respect you!

[Felix]

If you think Im winding and repeating questions already asked; Its because I cant find any decent and logic answers!

P.s. I would love a hands on and speaking to the guy in person who found it over a bottle of whiskey!

[BenVK]

Ben, as strange as it might sound, my belief is that not all people are deserving of respect (in life or this hobby); it is the same as trust, you Earn it!!!

Bryon, that doesn't sound strange at all. In fact, I couldn't agree more and I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

The reason why I think this thread has become a stage for a lot of people to vent their frustation is because there still seems to be a concensis among some older collectors, more evident by their silence than by their posts, that because they've been around for a long time, that they are above being questioned or doubted. It's deeply saddening for me to witness this because, unfortunately, it just confirms the same attitude I've seen when talking to older UK collectors and dealers at shows and fairs and the reason I don't bother going to them anymore. It's just embarassing to be honest.

The whole ethos of "just take my word for it, I've been doing this for 30 years" really doesn't cut it anymore. We now have forums like this, the internet and it's wealth of information and access to tons of period film to watch online, the list goes on etc etc. Ironically, to prove a point here, both Nick and I have been having a conversation with the son of one of the longest running TR collecables businesses in the UK on another forum recently. He is nice guy, same age as me, in his thirties but will not and can not accept that his fathers teachings might be flawed and they certainly are because he wouldn't accept that the 360 marked SS cap insignia he was selling was fake when I told him. Someone said earlier on that they would take the word of their long time and trusted friends on face value and that's good enough for them. The trust between father and son is on another plane to that but it's still missguided trust in this case none the less because it's just wrong information. This is just one example I know but I think it underlines what I'm trying to say rather well.

I have no interest in buying this tunic and no axe to grind. I don't have any collector friends that I hang out with and no allegencies to anyone. In that respect I'm lucky I guess, it's all about the item that I see, nothing more. Certain guys here have earned my respect by the knowledge they've shared but I've never meet anyone in person from here in all the years since I joined so it's nothing personnel at all.

But, I wanted to get involved in this thread, not because of the tunic, I don't give a monkeys arse about it to be honest. It's because I'm worried about the ever increasing divide I've seen happen between the old(er) and young (er) collectors. I absolutley miss Donald A every day I visit here, his retirement from this forum was a big blow to me personnaly because I learn't something new everytime he was online. The guy was an encyclopedia of information and what he got up to as far as buying and selling was his own business as far as I'm concerned and not worth making a big deal about.

It's the same in this case IMO. No need for the cloak and daggers, just say it like it is, stop treating us like fools, let the buyer decide and hopefully we won't loose anybody else like DA in the future because of this.

[Robin Lumsden]

Well said!

[B. N. Singer]

...I have had enough of this and am sorry I ever tried to be helpful. In the future, I will be more careful with my help, on anything posted.

Bob Hritz

Boy, I think I might be in agreement with you at this point Mr. Hritz!!!

B. N. Singer

[BenVK]

Boy, I think I might be in agreement with you at this point Mr. Hritz!!!

B. N. Singer

No Bob, Bryon, wrong, competely wrong.

The day you feel you can't share your experience and knowledge is the day you should just pack up and sit in a dark room with your ss crusher on your head and a bottle of JD in your hands repeating, "they just don't understand us". Don't do it!! not yet anyway!

[B. N. Singer]

No Bob, Bryon, wrong, competely wrong.

The day you feel you can't share your experience and knowledge is the day you should just pack up and sit in a dark room with your ss crusher on your head and a bottle of JD in your hands repeating, "they just don't understand us". Don't do it!! not yet anyway!

Ben,

Please, I do not wish to mislead (or disappoint anyone who would think "good he's gone"), I am not thinking of stopping my posting on the forum. I enjoy "helping" in my small non expansive manor.

Only that I have exhausted myself with this particular thread and I just don't have anything else I can offer.

Best regards,
Bryon (B. N.) Singer

[John Pic]

I dont think the goal was to drive away knowledgable people but to rather to try and form a more inclusive consensus base that approaches all items....no matter whose name is attached in whatever way with equal assessment as is given an item that has been known about in the collections of friends from various areas and shows.