SS Panzer Wrap

[tgn]

Are you saying that this little piece of info is not true?

No, I am just saying that I didn't hear that. Did the present seller add that caveat? Honest, I am just curious. If you know something, just tell us...Tom

[BlackBelt]

Yes well, I knew it would not suffice

B. N. Singer

Then why typing it? The questions are phrased with direct information needed, not vague reponses. If you were asking these questions, would you accept these answers? I know I would not. Let me say incase there is any confusion. I am not the least bit interested in the purchase of this tunic for obvious reasons. I am posing these questions to get answers for the benefit of members who have been asking, including myself. I am not sure if you really do not know, or your just holding on because you know that the tunic is tained, and simply don't want to admit it. Either way, you acknowldege that there was once a painted "P" on the reverse that has been removed, so that proves that you have already made a false statment intentionaly or not. You said it was 100% untouched. Removal of a "P" for POW on the tunic qualifies as "touched" in my book. Especially when the whole story of the tunic revolves around a POW. Either the person who removed the "P" was really stupid for removing a key piece of the puzzle, or there was never a 'P" to begin with. Which is it?

[BlackBelt]

No, I am just saying that I didn't hear that. Did the present seller add that caveat? Honest, I am just curious. If you know something, just tell us...Tom

I am not sure who the present owner is or if they are selling it, let alone if that was their stipulation. I do know 2 people that were approched with the sale of this wrap in the past, and that was a specific condition of the sale.

[B. N. Singer]

Then why typing it?....Either way, you acknowldege that there was once a painted "P" on the reverse that has been removed, so that proves that you have already made a false statment intentionaly or not. You said it was 100% untouched. Removal of a "P" for POW on the tunic qualifies as "touched" in my book. Especially when the whole story of the tunic revolves around a POW. Either the person who removed the "P" was really stupid for removing a key piece of the puzzle, or there was never a 'P" to begin with. Which is it?

Incorrect.

You need to read more carefully. I will not do your work for you, so, may I suggest that you go back and take the time to get your facts correct.

B. N. Singer

[B. N. Singer]

Incorrect.

You need to read more carefully. I will not do your work for you, so, may I suggest that you go back and take the time to get your facts correct.

B. N. Singer

All right, see I am not that bad after all, I'll help you. My post #149.

B. N. Singer

[tgn]

I am not the least bit interested in the purchase of this tunic for obvious reasons. I am posing these questions to get answers for the benefit of members who have been asking, including myself. I am not sure if you really do not know, or your just holding on because you know that the tunic is tained, and simply don't want to admit it. Either way, you acknowldege that there was once a painted "P" on the reverse that has been removed, so that proves that you have already made a false statment intentionaly or not. You said it was 100% untouched. Removal of a "P" for POW on the tunic qualifies as "touched" in my book. Especially when the whole story of the tunic revolves around a POW. Either the person who removed the "P" was really stupid for removing a key piece of the puzzle, or there was never a 'P" to begin with. Which is it?

I, too, am not interested in buying this wrap (I could never afford it) and have no gain to make by its sale. I am just curious like the rest of you. But this attack on Bryon is dead off-base. We ALL learned that the "P" was on the back as a result of this thread. In fact, NO information has been withheld by Byron or myself. Others on this thread do know more than they are saying, though.

I think you owe Bryon an apology on that last mis-statement...Tom

[Bob Coleman]

It Is Interesting How Some Of The Younger Members Seem To Think They Are "entitled" To Answers On Their Questions-even When Some Of Those Issues Have Been Addressed Previously In This Thread. No One Involved With This Thread Is The Current Owner Of This Piece. I Would Venture A Guess That Many Of Those Who Have Responded In The Negative To This Piece Were Not Collecting At The Time This Piece Was Aquired. Therefore, They Have No First Hand Knowledge Of The State Of Collecting In The 70's Or The Level Of Fakery In The Market Place. However, They Feel Fully Confident To Strongly Comment On Things Of Which They Have No First Hand Knowledge. By Today's Standards Of Collecting, The Only Way Any Relic Can Be Accepted As Original Would Be If You Were The Vet And Picked It Up Personally While Still In The Service. I Do Not Find This A Very Promising Criteria For Further Collecting. Study Of Materials, Construction Techniques And Provenance Are All Important.
Bryon And Tom, As Bob Hritz Once Said To Me "don't Try And Make A Pig Sing."

[tgn]

Bryon And Tom, As Bob Hritz Once Said To Me "don't Try And Make A Pig Sing."

Excuse me Bob, but what in the heck does that mean?

Tom

[jacquesf]

It Is Interesting How Some Of The Younger Members Seem To Think They Are "entitled" To Answers On Their Questions-even When Some Of Those Issues Have Been Addressed Previously In This Thread. No One Involved With This Thread Is The Current Owner Of This Piece. I Would Venture A Guess That Many Of Those Who Have Responded In The Negative To This Piece Were Not Collecting At The Time This Piece Was Aquired. Therefore, They Have No First Hand Knowledge Of The State Of Collecting In The 70's Or The Level Of Fakery In The Market Place. However, They Feel Fully Confident To Strongly Comment On Things Of Which They Have No First Hand Knowledge. By Today's Standards Of Collecting, The Only Way Any Relic Can Be Accepted As Original Would Be If You Were The Vet And Picked It Up Personally While Still In The Service. I Do Not Find This A Very Promising Criteria For Further Collecting. Study Of Materials, Construction Techniques And Provenance Are All Important.
Bryon And Tom, As Bob Hritz Once Said To Me "don't Try And Make A Pig Sing."

Bob, I am sorry but you are not making a lot of sense. Firstly, you are generalising about people and their expertise that you don't know. Secondly, you disregard the comments and opinions placed by these so-called younger members because what they say are uncomfortable and cutting a bit close to the bone. Thirdly, this disrespect for people/ members perceived to be younger comes through again. Fourthly, the different criteria/ standards that older ?, collecters have when it comes to their own items and that of their circle of friends , compared to that they have for any other item is very evident from this thread.

This thread has been an eye opener for me with regard to some people that I have always respected on the forum. Maybe I was just very naive, but what I experienced in the past year on the forum and culminating in this thread has left me very dissapointed in certian individuals. Jacques

[BlackBelt]

Incorrect.

You need to read more carefully. I will not do your work for you, so, may I suggest that you go back and take the time to get your facts correct.

B. N. Singer

"You need to read more carefully."

Which part? SPECIFICLY

" I will not do your work for you"

Thank you. Based on this thread I am not sure your level of "homework" would make the cut.

"may I suggest that you go back and take the time to get your facts correct."

Thanks for the suggestion, when you actually state something factual, I will be sure to check it.

If I am not mistaken, and I could certainly be, you confirmed a painted "P" on the tunic. If an error, my apologies up front. If not an error, than we are still at square one aren't we.

[BlackBelt]

I, too, am not interested in buying this wrap (I could never afford it) and have no gain to make by its sale. I am just curious like the rest of you. But this attack on Bryon is dead off-base. We ALL learned that the "P" was on the back as a result of this thread. In fact, NO information has been withheld by Byron or myself. Others on this thread do know more than they are saying, though.

I think you owe Bryon an apology on that last mis-statement...Tom

I am not attacking Mr Singer at all, I simply pointed out all the "Old Collectors" evasive answers. These men hold themselves up to be the standard in collecting, but when puh comes to shove, they are not able to answer anything that can be verified. Why is that? Old habit perhaps. In most cases I respect the input from Mr. Singer, and the other "old time collectors". I am not discounting their knowledge on the subject, however this thread has provided some enlightenment to how they may clarify their remarks. If someone is quesitoning their reasoning here, its safe to question all previous and future "evaluations" they may provide. Does it not?

[tgn]

Second, the story first related about the piece, i. e. that it was discovered from a "veteran source" (or at least one that would be akin to such), in the mid 1970s, somewhere in AZ is absolutely true as far as I and other "older collectors" know. I was not aware of any POW connection/association and cannot comment on this.

B. N. Singer

Just to lead the mule to the water trough so it can drink...an excerpt from post #149 from B.N. Singer

Tom

[Dennis J]

wrap

This has and I guess will be a long thread with many people liking the tunic and just as many not liking the tunic.I really do not know because I do not collect SS tunics but I have been collecting for a long time(47 years)and can tell you for a fact that a tunic like this back in the 50s and 60s was not that easy to find with all the insg in place as a matter of fact back then it brought a good price as all SS items did.Did people fake them back then hell yea they did, were a lot of the fakes made to look like movie props oh hell some of them were just down right funny But there were people back then that were very good at putting on orig. insg on a stripped tunic.I have seen some of the tunics that Charlie Snyder had put together back then that are in peoples collections today and they swear that this is a real untouched tunic to this day and have had big name collectors look at them and swear that they were untouched tunics to this day.I have seen first hand people put orig. helmet decals on helmets back in the 50s and 60s because back then as today a collector looked for the same thing as they do now a helmet in exc. with decals the same with tunics a true COLLECTOR would look for all the things as they do now.If you found out that your tunic,helmet was a fake you tried to get your money back if the person that sold the tunic to you would not give you back your money(if you were a true COLLECTOR and not a ripp off)you took that tunic,helmet etc to all the gun shows and told everybody where you got it and how you know it is a fake.We did not have the internet back in those days but we had word of mouth and that woked very well among collectors and their friends you ask anybody if a piece was bad everybody in the country that went to gun shows knew about that tunic etc.One forum member say's he knows George Peterson.I knew George when he worked in northen Virginia and had only 2 Luft. tunics in his collection.I have seen George and the guy who use to own Globe Militaria and Charlie Snyder have a ton of ORIG.WW2 stripped uniforms that people bought and had orig. ins put on them.I had a orig STRIPPED SS tunic that I took to Ted Lenkels wife in NJ and had her put orig SS insg on it the way I wanted it. Mrs Lenkel was a seamstress(so the story goes) in a work camp in Germany during WW2.I called this tunic a hanger a real stripped tunic with orig. SS insg.and a lot of loops for medals just the way I wanted it.To make this story even more far out was the FACT that Ted and his wife were Jewish.As I said I do not know if the story about her being in a work camp or not was true but the one thing I do know for a fact that she was a German jewish lady and a master seamstress and that a lot of dealers would send tunics to her so she could work her magic.I sat right there with her as she put my tunic together and told me stories of how they did this back in Germany and how I could tell the difference from a US seamstress to one that was taught the trade in Germany.Some of the insg. that I had for MY tunic was as she said not right for that year tunic and would get the right insg and put it on for me and send me the tunic when it was ready.Oh yea this was 1962.So please don't tell me that they did not know what they were doing back in the day.
I know one thing that if I or any collector had a tunic as long as Mr. Singer has had it and has been collecting SS items as long as he has I would not have keep this tinic as long as he did if it was not what I thought it was I would have told everybody that this was a orig. tunic with proper insg. applied post war and it would have been out of collection as soon as I found out.As far as the POW story goes that could or could not be true and was the story told to Mr.Singer.I do not know Mr.Singer but I have heard good things about him so I don't think he would try to ripp somebody off because he has been in the hobby a long time and he does not have a bad rep and he knows his hobby.A thing like this would not help his many many years of collecting and would ruin his creditability.
Then here we go just because someone is from the old school that does not mean that he or she can not be fooled.I know I have lots of time.




Enjoy your hobby
Dennis J

[BlackBelt]

Just to lead the mule to the water trough so it can drink...an excerpt from post #149 from B.N. Singer

Tom

Thanks Tom. I may be a stuborn mule, but certainly not a sheep that just follows the crowd. If you get the drift. Mr. Singer my apologies for misquoting the "P" story. Although it did not come from you, others here related it to the tunic history. So the point is still relevant.

[BenVK]

Well then what about me???

B. N. Singer

Bryon, you always keep you cards very close to your chest on this forum and like I've said before, it's frustrating but it's your choice and I can respect that. I also know or hope to think that you have equal respect for us young guns.

Anyway, just for the hell of it, I've been looking through as many POW camp photos as I can over the last few days. Not one shows a single "P" painted on the back of any garment. The correct stamping looks to have been "P.W." and only used on the clothing supplied to the prisoners and not on their original uniforms.
It's also unusual to see any POW's in USA camps with their insignia or decorations still attached, unless you were Afrika Korps for some strange reason. In Canadian camps, it's the opposite with a lot of photos showing complete untouched uniforms and caps still being worn. In the UK, it's seems to be somewhere in the middle with mostly shoulderboards and collar tabs allowed but no eagles.