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**BenVK** · 06-25-2007, 04:43 PM

I don't know enough about tunics to be able to form an opinion about this one either way or who's opinion to listen to in regards to it's authenticity.
And, that's my point. It may sound a simplistic one but if you haven't got the personnal knowledge built on your own research and experience, you shouldn't be collecting in this particular area....yet.
For me, that's the key issue here. I would have thought that stories and gossip of where an item came from or who's hands it's passed through should be entirely meaningless to a collector considering buying this kind of high end item.
In the same vain, if you're worried about the lack of re-sale opportunities down the line because some members here prehaps didn't like it based on some photos, again, you shouldn't be buying it IMO. It's good to have second opinions but if you always value the other persons opinion more than your own, what's the point? You might as well hand them the cash to buy a collection for you!

**tgn** · 06-25-2007, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post

Unfortunately, the first owner, from Illinois, is not a 'computer guy' and does not use such forums. There are many collectors, from the midwest, who remember this tunic. For whatever reasons, they have not bothered to chime in. Bob Hritz

Excellent point, Bob. There are many collectors who remember this wrap, myself included, and it would be nice if they confirmed the history. Of course, some already have, like Bob Coleman. Several notable ones have chosen to remain silent. Maybe, like you before today, they don't realize this is the one they saw so many years ago. You are also right that many of these collectors are not computer guys and neither read nor post on any forum.

I just got back from looking at the wrap again. I can find no trace of any "P" marking on the back, nor any loss of wool nap from its removal. I will talk to the first owner and asked him what he did to remove it. Heck, we don't even know if it was marked with paint - could have been chalk for all we know.

Tom

**Lasse Kongo** · 06-25-2007, 06:32 PM

Anyone beliving this to be a original untouched tunic should travel back to Na-Na land and start collecting dreams only........

- Cloth is nearly untouched.

- Insignias are well worn.

- Buttonholes looks really crappy.

- Lining is replaced, why on a hardly worn wrapper, most certainly the fake lining from this total repro wrapper was removed and replaced with something which where original only to decive.

-Insignias are definatly replaced at the same time the lining was replaced.

- No way a POW in US would walk around with a fully badged panzer wrapper, anyhow not more then a couple days

- It would have P or POW painted on the back, I have seen some tunics with that text on them, and it is not possible to remove, or if done, it will take with it so much cloth so the text will appear anyhow.

- The hooks for closure is really put on by someone not knowing what they are doing as wrapper can never be worn and closed properly

- No provinience have been proven.

I find it strange that collectors with so tight standards for what is original and "textbook or not can defend such a obvious dud! If any panzer garnment have several anomalities this is the one.

Just my humble opinion.

Lasse

**tgn** · 06-25-2007, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Lasse Kongo View Post

- No provinience have been proven.

Just my humble opinion.

Lasse

So, in your humble opinion, this is a big conspiracy, and Bryon Singer, Bob Coleman, Bob Hritz, and I, who cumulatively have well over 100 years collecting experience have all been the victims of a massive duping. This is not to even mention the other old cadre collectors who, as Bob Hritz mentioned, also know the history of the wrap since it was found by the original collector in the mid-1970's!

If this does not constitue some manner of credible provenance, then there is nothing more that can be said...Tom

**djpool** · 06-25-2007, 08:06 PM

Back to the wailing wall!

I think this wrap thread is as much about the state of the hobby as it is about the wrap itself. Its certainly a good way to vent my frustration though. A lot healthier and cheaper then hitting the bottle.

The German soldier after 1940/41 was probably as non textbook as they come. Unofficial modifications to production uniforms, strange field made items, unofficial insignia, captured clothing, civilian clothing worn as military garments and it goes on. This can all be verified by pictures! So why does the collecting community insist on rigid texbook standards.The Germans occupied most of Europe and had access to local tailors as well as there own internal tailoring capabilities within the unit up to depot. U.S. POW camps usually included a tailor shop as well. How the hell does anyone know what materials, tailoring materials and standards were used in the occupied territories. We assume everything was Made In Germany. Most german front line soldiers spend little time in Germany.When he was fortunate to get furlough I doubt he spent it at the tailor shop. As the situation got worse at the front, unit tailors were kept busy fabricating field made garments and repairing issue uniforms because the supply chain could not keep up with the demands placed on it. It was difficult enough especially in the west 44 to get fuel and ammuntion to the troops.

Personally I believe the basic wrap and insignia are okay.The relining job is probably okay but difficult to prove unless you believe the story.

Provenance. The basic philosphy by the forum members has been "Believe the item not the story". Is that fair? No its not. Items obtained directly from vets in the 60s-80s are most likely original.
True there are those scum bags that pass themselves off as vets to sell fakes or collectors that steal vet items and replace them with fakes so that they don't know. These items usually have nothing in common with an original item.
The real issue is who is allowed to use a vet story as provenance, because it boils down to the honesty and credibility of the person telling the vet story. Is Bob Hritz a good source -absolutely. If he tells me its from a vet then it is. Am I credible, probable not. I'm not known among the big collectors. Of course I don't have anything directly from a vet, but several items I own came from someone who obtained it from a vet.

So I believe the wrap is from a vet in AZ. However I'm not sure about the POW camp part.Even Mr Singer doesn't recall that. So maybe its an embellishment as the story was passed on. I don't know.

If the POW story holds up, then what facts do we have about the U.S. Camps. POWS were allowed to keep their uniforms with insignia to be worn on special occasions. They were issued with POW garments from the U.S. Supply channels. The issue uniforms weren't always marked with a P. The garments worn on a daily basis were. I think if this SS officer escaped from a camp in AZ in that wrapper it wouldn't take a big P for someone to realize he was a POW!

I firmly believe that the state of reproductions was not of the quality level this wrap exhibits. As someone stated above they didn't need to be. There were few references back then. Theater props, civilian jackets, foreign tunics with added insignia sold very well back then. I was the proud owner of a few of them until George Peterson took me under his wings until I was experienced enough to fly on my own. Occasionally someone will post one of these jokes from the 70s and we all get a big laugh. We weren't laughing back then.

I think I will ask Bob Hritzs wife to leave a small hole next to his cremated collection, to bury the remains of my cremated collection. I put up with the frustration because I love the hobby.I certainly won't allow my wife to be subjected to some of the BS that goes on though.

My two cents. WR Jim

**judas** · 06-25-2007, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by djpool View Post

Back to the wailing wall!

I think this wrap thread is as much about the state of the hobby as it is about the wrap itself. Its certainly a good way to vent my frustration though. A lot healthier and cheaper then hitting the bottle.

The German soldier after 1940/41 was probably as non textbook as they come. Unofficial modifications to production uniforms, strange field made items, unofficial insignia, captured clothing, civilian clothing worn as military garments and it goes on. This can all be verified by pictures! So why does the collecting community insist on rigid texbook standards.The Germans occupied most of Europe and had access to local tailors as well as there own internal tailoring capabilities within the unit up to depot. U.S. POW camps usually included a tailor shop as well. How the hell does anyone know what materials, tailoring materials and standards were used in the occupied territories. We assume everything was Made In Germany. Most german front line soldiers spend little time in Germany.When he was fortunate to get furlough I doubt he spent it at the tailor shop. As the situation got worse at the front, unit tailors were kept busy fabricating field made garments and repairing issue uniforms because the supply chain could not keep up with the demands placed on it. It was difficult enough especially in the west 44 to get fuel and ammuntion to the troops.

Personally I believe the basic wrap and insignia are okay.The relining job is probably okay but difficult to prove unless you believe the story.

Provenance. The basic philosphy by the forum members has been "Believe the item not the story". Is that fair? No its not. Items obtained directly from vets in the 60s-80s are most likely original.
True there are those scum bags that pass themselves off as vets to sell fakes or collectors that steal vet items and replace them with fakes so that they don't know. These items usually have nothing in common with an original item.
The real issue is who is allowed to use a vet story as provenance, because it boils down to the honesty and credibility of the person telling the vet story. Is Bob Hritz a good source -absolutely. If he tells me its from a vet then it is. Am I credible, probable not. I'm not known among the big collectors. Of course I don't have anything directly from a vet, but several items I own came from someone who obtained it from a vet.

So I believe the wrap is from a vet in AZ. However I'm not sure about the POW camp part.Even Mr Singer doesn't recall that. So maybe its an embellishment as the story was passed on. I don't know.

If the POW story holds up, then what facts do we have about the U.S. Camps. POWS were allowed to keep their uniforms with insignia to be worn on special occasions. They were issued with POW garments from the U.S. Supply channels. The issue uniforms weren't always marked with a P. The garments worn on a daily basis were. I think if this SS officer escaped from a camp in AZ in that wrapper it wouldn't take a big P for someone to realize he was a POW!

I firmly believe that the state of reproductions was not of the quality level this wrap exhibits. As someone stated above they didn't need to be. There were few references back then. Theater props, civilian jackets, foreign tunics with added insignia sold very well back then. I was the proud owner of a few of them until George Peterson took me under his wings until I was experienced enough to fly on my own. Occasionally someone will post one of these jokes from the 70s and we all get a big laugh. We weren't laughing back then.

I think I will ask Bob Hritzs wife to leave a small hole next to his cremated collection, to bury the remains of my cremated collection. I put up with the frustration because I love the hobby.I certainly won't allow my wife to be subjected to some of the BS that goes on though.

My two cents. WR Jim

well that two cents was well said. even the black allgemeine tunics were sent off to the dutch and put back in to circulation

**NTZ** · 06-25-2007, 08:56 PM

What I don’t get is this. If you read the whole thread a majority of the posters including the ones who had it in hand believe the tunic is a period tunic. From what I read the doubters are basing everything on the lining and the collar hooks of which both can be explained and have been. So is it fair to say the consensus is the tunic is good? Now the insignia, no one doubts the originality of that. So what it boils down to is the insignia original to the tunic? Was this a POW tunic? I have heard no good argument for the insignia not being original to the tunic. Some say the wear patterns don’t match. Well I don’t see that one. If it had insignia in the 1970’s I doubt they would have been put on in the manor they are on today. No one was that well versed in period sewing. No one cared for that matter. For those who were there and remember it remember the POW markings. The original owner confirmed he removed them. So why is it that big of a stretch to put it all together and conclude it is what it is said to be?

**djpool** · 06-25-2007, 09:04 PM

I'm not sure if the POW story associated with this wrap is true or not but here are some interesting shots of German Pows in america. I'm really surprised that there aren't more pics available especially after 44.

Oh in case I forget it, appears that photo studios were available to the POWS so they could send pictures back in their letters home.WR Jim

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**djpool** · 06-25-2007, 09:05 PM

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**djpool** · 06-25-2007, 09:05 PM

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**djpool** · 06-25-2007, 09:06 PM

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**djpool** · 06-25-2007, 09:07 PM

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**djpool** · 06-25-2007, 09:08 PM

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**djpool** · 06-25-2007, 09:08 PM

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**djpool** · 06-25-2007, 09:09 PM

last for now.

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powcount.jpg (22.5 KB, 456 views)

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