Ss Smock Opinion

[phild]

"On the side note of me selling my fake pink smock for $100 , I believe that is all they are worth and the thought of me going on to Ebay and sticking it to another collector is not what I am about."

I appreciate your honesty however, I've seen three sales lately that clearly state that there are two schools of thought about these smocks and they all sold from $1350-$1900, two on this site and the one posted in the link above. I can't see it as "sticking it" to anyone who knows upfront what is going on with these.

Yes, I saw one sell for well over 3k, 4 or 5 years ago from a large dealer and he disclosed the controversy right up front. Clearly they can be found for less but if they truly look and are so out of line from an original then perhaps even $100 is too much to ask.

[kammo man]

pink oak leaf smock

Hey
Like I said in my first post on these jackets I paid 750 british pounds for one from Regimentals in London.
This was in the late 80s maybee 87 or 88 and you know it was the first smock I had ever held in my hands either real or fake.
Since then I have seen not a lot more but in the 25 to 30 number so not every one out there but enough to get a feel .
The pink is just a different baby than all the others.
Maybee it is a training smock for us all.
Do we need to pay $1350 ish just to be taught a lesson .
I still ask the question has anyone got one with the correct rayon lace up string?
As far as I know they never come with one.
And has anybody ever owned a garment made from the HBpocket material?
Has any one ever wondered why the late great Mike Beaver did not use these jackets for any of his fine works on SS camouflage?
They are not even mentioned once ,he even managed to show a picture of the rare Liber pattern!!
That is good police work.
Is there any end to this 14 page X file episode???

[phild]

Hey
Like I said in my first post on these jackets I paid 750 british pounds for one from Regimentals in London.
This was in the late 80s maybee 87 or 88 and you know it was the first smock I had ever held in my hands either real or fake.
Since then I have seen not a lot more but in the 25 to 30 number so not every one out there but enough to get a feel .
The pink is just a different baby than all the others.
Maybee it is a training smock for us all.
Do we need to pay $1350 ish just to be taught a lesson .
I still ask the question has anyone got one with the correct rayon lace up string?
As far as I know they never come with one.
And has anybody ever owned a garment made from the HBpocket material?
Has any one ever wondered why the late great Mike Beaver did not use these jackets for any of his fine works on SS camouflage?
They are not even mentioned once ,he even managed to show a picture of the rare Liber pattern!!
That is good police work.
Is there any end to this 14 page X file episode???

OK, I'm in for a dime in for a dollar, I guess there is no need for me to let this go now!

Item 1 (neck lace)- I doubt that 10% of the unquestionable SS smocks were found (God knows what collectors have "corrected" on them since they were found!) with what could be a called a standard neck lace. The questions are were some smocks issued with them? Were ALL smocks issued with them? If either of the aforementioned conditions are true did the laces come installed in the smocks or simply in the tied bundles of smocks as they were apparently stored and shipped as and if so were these with the pink smocks lost?

Item 2 (hbt pocket fabric used somewhere else?)- I don't know. I've seen a LOT of slightly different hbt types (weaves, content, thickness...and forget colors) used in for parts of or all of a huge variety of German uniforms. HBT as a fabric was used world-wide during the 30s and earlier for work clothes and other utility applications to include sacking material...it was very common and very cheap and found in a lot of variety. To think that a manufacturer in another country would have used what they could get locally makes a lot of sense, after all it is a pocket bag we are talking about here. What makes zero sense is that the SS would have shipped rolls of hbt from their own mill source hundreds of km's away to a foreign country to be used in a contract smock pocket.

Item 3 (non inclusion in A. Beaver's camo book) - This is the easy one. He probably did not believe in them either and if he did or did not or may have sorta, he would not have included them because of the controversy they would have raised...at least not unless he could have proven them to be period. His omission, just as most dealers won't offer them as orignal period smocks means that they are in a loosing situation given the climate of controversy around these. It may also mean they think that they are fake as well, but it does not neccessarily mean that. As to Beaver's not even giving these mention I took that as him not wanting to open this can of worms as he apparently could not prove them as repro either and knew that there were experienced collectors who had not ruled them out as being real.

[kammo man]

pink oak leaf smock

Philid
Thanks for your thoughts on this .
We all know that the laces are very fragile and the vintage ones that I have seen and own would break if you gave them a good pull so they are the most likely to be replaced.
I used a drawcord from an old Italian jacket in both my pink smocks because I thought they looked cool.
On the pocket HB what bothers me is the fufflyness, check it out dog!
Sorry I watched American Idol last night!
It has a brushed look to it.
Other Wartime material has a more dence feel to it .
I looked through my old photos and found a couple of shots of the smock being worn winter side out.I will post these today , the pattern looks closer on this side in my opinion.
Do you collect smocks or other SS camouflage?

[phild]

Philid
Thanks for your thoughts on this .
We all know that the laces are very fragile and the vintage ones that I have seen and own would break if you gave them a good pull so they are the most likely to be replaced.
I used a drawcord from an old Italian jacket in both my pink smocks because I thought they looked cool.
On the pocket HB what bothers me is the fufflyness, check it out dog!
Sorry I watched American Idol last night!
It has a brushed look to it.
Other Wartime material has a more dence feel to it .
I looked through my old photos and found a couple of shots of the smock being worn winter side out.I will post these today , the pattern looks closer on this side in my opinion.
Do you collect smocks or other SS camouflage?

You may be 100% correct and these may prove fake. I certainly am not sure that they are original. The materials are different than German made ones and that's a fact.

A couple of intersting characteristics with these smocks are the hand sewn opening eyelets and the very correct looking (to me at least) stress point reinforcing to be found in the right places and done the right way. It is interesting that non disputed SS smocks can be found with both machinne sewn and hand sewn eyelets. These smocks also seem to have been sewn with a double needle machine, which implies for the period that an advanced factory actually amde them. The SS at Ravensbruck I believe based on Beaver or Mollo obtained this type of machine circa 1942. This kind of deatail was a tall order to be found on fakes circa 1980....I have been collecting for 10 years by then so I have some foundation in both fakes and originals..those characteristics impressed me back then about the these smocks.

I do not collect SS camo per se, I have studied and looked at it a lot over some time now. My approach to authenication in general has long been that comparison point by point to an original is only one step in authenicationg an item and often 2 different orignals will be very different.

[kammo man]

Pink oak leaf smock

[IMG]<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/albums/dd112/owenfresh123/?action=view&current=Untitled-2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd112/owenfresh123/Untitled-2.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>[/IMG]

[IMG]<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/albums/dd112/owenfresh123/?action=view&current=Untitled-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd112/owenfresh123/Untitled-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>[/IMG]

Hi all
Here is my first pink .
These pix were taken in Ireland around 1988.
I am sorry they are messed up but they were in an old moldy box for 20 years.
Like I said the winter has a good look to it but it is different than the cover , different pattern and fade ,but it gives you a quick glance at color.
The cover was bought from Malcom Tredwin another London dealer.
I paid around 350 British pounds for it and was told that it was real.
It turned out to be fake with hand made clips but good zelt materal.
These people seem to pray on us young collectors back then.
All the other stuff I was wearing was made up by me except the map case and the Luger holster.
But I was 20 years of age and only starting out.
There has been alot of water under the bridge since then!!!
Some one out there could put a black and white wash on these and see how the pattern holds up, I am not that teckie.
so there you go and have a good laugh on me...........

[Patrick Dempsey]

Black & White.

[Lorenz]

Phild,
gò back on this thread and read some comments, here there are people that collecting this kind of stuffs for 20/30 years and they think that this pink smocks are fakes...people that studyed this items 2/3 times the time that you spent on it...point by point...
Maybe, with all respect, you need to study more.........on original pieces....
The caracteristics that you think are interesting , are the more easy to remake, the smock it's a very easy item to reproduce, nothing difficult, the double needle machine was "advanced" in 1942? I have a lateral variant plan tree helmetcover (here a picture)with sewn clips and sure prewar construction with double needle stitching between the central piece and the two lateral pieces.
Not all you can found on books...handling original items you can understand and discover more of any book.
In the '80 this machine was very common like now...the hand sewn eyelets? a child can remake them!
If this pink smocks had the machine sewn eyelets, common on many original smocks, m43 tunics, FJ jump smocks etc etc was different..I dont still found a fake with this type of machine sewn eyelets.......but how know...maybe soon..

You may be 100% correct and these may prove fake. I certainly am not sure that they are original. The materials are different than German made ones and that's a fact.

A couple of intersting characteristics with these smocks are the hand sewn opening eyelets and the very correct looking (to me at least) stress point reinforcing to be found in the right places and done the right way. It is interesting that non disputed SS smocks can be found with both machinne sewn and hand sewn eyelets. These smocks also seem to have been sewn with a double needle machine, which implies for the period that an advanced factory actually amde them. The SS at Ravensbruck I believe based on Beaver or Mollo obtained this type of machine circa 1942. This kind of deatail was a tall order to be found on fakes circa 1980....I have been collecting for 10 years by then so I have some foundation in both fakes and originals..those characteristics impressed me back then about the these smocks.

I do not collect SS camo per se, I have studied and looked at it a lot over some time now. My approach to authenication in general has long been that comparison point by point to an original is only one step in authenicationg an item and often 2 different orignals will be very different.

[T.Braun]

That B & W photo speaks volumes as to why we don't have "period photos" of this smock in wear. How can anyone tell for sure looking at a B & W photo if it's a "pink" smock?

[kammo man]

pink oak leaf smock

That is one sweet cover.

[fischer]

That B & W photo speaks volumes as to why we don't have "period photos" of this smock in wear. How can anyone tell for sure looking at a B & W photo if it's a "pink" smock?

I agree, how can you tell the difference in a black & white photo?

fischer

[RoyalDragon]

Bjr
Cette tarnjack est une reproduction fabriquée en 1982/83 en Europe ( Vienne ) Elle fut commercialisée en partie par un marchand Hollandais connu a l'époque , jusque dans les années 1985/86 qui les vendait pour authentique .
De nombreux modèles furent vendues par la suite sur Paris jusque dans les années 1990 . Il sagit d'une copie de bonne qualité pour l'époque , mais la toile n'est pas celle rencontrée sur les modèles originaux .
Merci a vous tous
Mathieu HANOT

[phild]

Bjr
Cette tarnjack est une reproduction fabriquée en 1982/83 en Europe ( Vienne ) Elle fut commercialisée en partie par un marchand Hollandais connu a l'époque , jusque dans les années 1985/86 qui les vendait pour authentique .
De nombreux modèles furent vendues par la suite sur Paris jusque dans les années 1990 . Il sagit d'une copie de bonne qualité pour l'époque , mais la toile n'est pas celle rencontrée sur les modèles originaux .
Merci a vous tous
Mathieu HANOT

I appreciate your input, but what evidence is there to support the claim that these are fakes/reproductions made in Vienna circa 1982/83?

I know that they were being sold as early as Oct. of 1981 as I bought one then in Germany. They had been in country for at lest several months if not nearly a year prior to that based on what friends told me then.

I believe that the dealer who sold them wholesale to other dealers was in fact located in Vienna. This dealer sold a lot of fake items, but he also sold a LOT of 100% original items, often both categories of items were found in large un-issued lots. Bales of 100% original AK uniform items (of all types) had turned up in similar circumstances only a few (maybe 6-8) years earlier and still around in quantity at that time...just to illustrate that this was not that unusual then.

One major aspect of these smocks (there are several others) that has never been seriously addressed in context with them being fake is an explanation of the ink stampings to be found in the pockets of so many of them.

They were not fake markings and they were not put in to make collectors believe that they were 'museum' stampings or anything similar...many pockets were inked out or "de-milled"......nothing has been offered to addess this....ever that I know of.

One thing is for sure is that both fake and original items can be the vistims of myths that take on a life of their own. I too would like to one day KNOW the true story on these.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Kammoman

Holy Smokies that is you as a wee Lad Kammo man. Why don't you tell the truth??? You are standing in front of the Secret Irish Plant that produced these Smocks for Sale through Crooked Delears to finance your Republican Activities. Come clean Kammo man !

[n160]

I know this thread is old but I have a few more cents to add. These "pink" smocks date to at least 1980. That's when I first saw them show up- I was 12 at my first military show at OVMS. They were being sold for $150 as "great new german repro". I got an email a few years ago from a guy who claimed to have been in on the initial deal- this guy was later involved with the Irish smocks and the Brohl saga. He told me that they were released from Berman & Nathan, costumers in London in '78 or '79. There were "lots" of them and they quickly made the rounds of the shows in Europe- as both real and fake.

At the Max show this year, I examined one that actually had reed green HBT pockets rather than the usual gray ones. They'd still had the stamp cut out. That was a first. I also looked at them harder- they use a 6mm double needle lockstitch machine to close the side seams. However, they use a much heavier olive thread than originals. I've only seen charcoal gray 2 cord on real smocks and I've fondled many. A few had some seams done in khaki thread (like 44 dot), but never, ever heavy olive. Of course, none of these have any scraps used from other patterns or shades of Oak on them either.

I've always considered them fake as well. But, I've dealt with repros for 30 years and I have never seen any that have gotten this close as far as the finer details. In 1980, the only reproductions we'd seen were those from Bud O'Toole (the Northwest Skinheads) and George Petersen. But they were amatuerish. The two needle machine is a big deal- they are not a common machine. Certainly not in someone's basement. Why would any costume house in the 1970's have gone to this much trouble to print on 55" wide, tucked edge poplin, use the right machines, and track down HBT for pocketing: and then screw up the colors? The anal level of detail is not indicative of a reproduction from 30 years ago.

I hate to say it, but I think they are from the 1940's. One hypothesis that does ,however, cover all bases is this: could they be immeidately post-War? The factories were still set up, they'd made them before and there was surely some fabric left over. The Czechs were known to have re-used alot of German gear, and much of Nazi Germany's textile production was in northern Czechoslovakia. They made almost identical belts, clothing bags, rucksacks, and Y-straps so why not smocks? A new run, with slightly different specs would account for the odd colors, different thread, lack of other shades for the small parts but same construction and cloth. How bales of them got to London is a good question but does this not make more sense?