Ss Smock Opinion

[kammo man]

pink oak leaf smock

I sold my last pink for $100 ,just to get the thing out of my house .
This was 6 months ago at the West coast historical military show.
Since then my war room is a much happer place to spend the evening!!!
John M you are correct in that correct M42s pocket HB material has the sheen to them.
Has anybody ever see a garment made fron the pinks HB pocket material??
sweet .
o

[phild]

For what it is worth, I had one of these at one time and have handled another half dozen more in hand since them. While the workman ship is fantastic, the fact they are all mint, and all absolutely identical suggest they are recently produced from the same source in the late 80's and early ninties.

At the SOS in 1993, there was a German dealer who had about 10 of them in a stack - all identical. He also had a bunch of WSS maker marked leather belts that proved later to be post war. I bought one of the pink smocks for $300 not knowing any better and held on to it for a few years. I eventually traded it away for what I paid for it once gained more experience and knowledge. I must mention that every one of these smocks was in 'mint' condition and identical in production quality. Everyone I have examined since has also been mint. That is a warning sign in my view.

The fact that most of the originals I have encounter show some signs of wear, even if it just storage wear while these one are always unissued. Also, the pink ones are always the exact same size (originals have size variations).

A few years ago, I was able to compare one of the pink ones (for someone who was interested in buying one) to an original 'mint' M42 in my collection (my M42 acquired from one of the leading collectors from one of the leading collections on this forum). Unfortunately I did not think to take photos at the time.

Construction specifications were close, but not exact (enough to create doubts). Further, the HBT material does not at all compare in quality to original hbt material being of a much looser weave and did not have the same rayon content as original smock hbt pocket material (which has a certain 'sheen' to it and much, much tighter weave).

Finally, the repeat pattern in the 'oak leaf' on the pink one did not remotely correspond to the repeat pattern in period oak leaf material. I compared it to several zelts I own (it was WAY off by well over 10 centimeters - without getting into specific details).

They are not original I am afraid and only made their appearance in late 80's at the earliest. Does anyone here have a pink one and a known original in the collection they can photograph together? This exposes alot of fine differences.

My two cents.

John,

I can take almost every point that you raised above and use it to make my case that these were foreign contracted. I will tell you for a fact that you can stake your life on that these were available at least as early as 1981 and not the late 1980s. I have friends who I beielve with my life who told me that they came into Germany in 1980 or very early 81 and I bought mine in early Oct. of 81.

A LOT of facts get ingnored or simply stomped down when any examination of these smocks comes about and that is what upsets me about the whole matter...not if they are orginal or not.

Every one of these that I have seen over the last 27 years shows storage wear, in some cases rodent damage, in some cases inventory type markings in a pocket that WAS NOT put in to try and fake someone out, and signs of a washing but not that I can say like "stone" washing.

I can also clear up the mis-information that the SS received 8000 smocks a month! That is nonsense and is documented. Some months the batches were completed and they got 8000 or 3000 or some other amount and some months they got none.

The SS had more labor than they could deal with, their problem was raw material and to some degree cloth/fabric production capacity...again all extremely well documented...so we don't have to guess here.

The insanity kicks in when over and over people are saying that the material used in these smocks would have never been used by the SS due it having inferior water shedding traits to the other normal cotton duck...while in same breath admitting that the SS used hbt (zero water shedding ability!!!) for smocks during this same time frame due to proper cotton duck shortages!!! How crazy is that?

Does anyone with any background in German uniforms expect in any way that hbt or a cotton outer cloth found in storage stock or made at a mill with a certain set up in a foriegn country is going to (without serious intervention) exactly duplicate the German product? If so, show me a case where it did.

As to the pattern or scheme of the camo....well oakleaf is a variation of plane tree, and OL(A) is a variation of OL(B) and Beaver and others go into this in some detail....1944 4 pocket pattern hbt uniforms can be found in oakleaf, it can also be found in DOT44 not to mention being made of brushed cotton (either captured Italian tropical leftover or Luftwaffe tropical leftover...).

When an idle fabric printing factory in Poland or CZ or Hungary has rollers that are 5 or 10 cm larger than what was being used by the SS in their "regular" layout runs (remember when I said that they were short on fabric production capacity?) then would it not make sense to extend and modify existing templates to fit?

Why are these not seen in period photos? Well first off there could not have been many made to begin with (if original), many if not most that were made were not issued and therefore not photographed....very simple. If any or many were issued (circa 1943) they would have almost certainly have gone and stayed in the East.

What percentage (%) of period photos that show Oakleaf camo have you found where you can say for sure if it is Type A or B that you are looking at? Please ask yourself that question. When I look at SS photos that survived from 1943 on especially from Russia I would doubt that I can really tell the smock camo pattern in MORE than 20 or 30% of them...try it you may be surprised. The truth is there would have to have been thousands of these smocks issued in order to have a high probability of finding a period photo (given the time and place that they would have been issued and worn) where the 10cm or so difference would/could be detected.

I again really welcome some science being applied to this.

[Mike C]

Phild,

With respect, I would go with the principle of Occam's Razor which simply states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory theory. In other words: "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities.

You are making multiple assumptions in regards to material, pattern, location of manufacturing, location of storage/issue, W-SS willingness to develop/modify new camouflage when they were standardizing production, and so on that are (to my mind) more a leap of faith than a logical conclusion.

As an aside, the figure of 8500 smocks a month was for June 1940 only - and was used to buttress the point that the production of W-SS camouflage items was even then a major process and less likely to involve small, one-off runs. Later production was, of course, substantially greater.

Mike

[T.Braun]

Take a look at Bob's photo in this thread of his original smock with a "pink" smock laying on it, I can hardly tell the difference, now make it black & white 15-20 feet away with mud and dirt. I was looking through some wartime pics of WSS wearing smocks in the Waffen SS in Action series and aside from palm or blured edge I couldn't tell one oak from another.

[T.Braun]

Kammo Man

If you truly sold your smock for $100 to get that nasty fake out of your house. You should have put it on ebay you may have gotten close to $1600+ like this chap. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=018

[phild]

Phild,

With respect, I would go with the principle of Occam's Razor which simply states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory theory. In other words: "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities.

You are making multiple assumptions in regards to material, pattern, location of manufacturing, location of storage/issue, W-SS willingness to develop/modify new camouflage when they were standardizing production, and so on that are (to my mind) more a leap of faith than a logical conclusion.

As an aside, the figure of 8500 smocks a month was for June 1940 only - and was used to buttress the point that the production of W-SS camouflage items was even then a major process and less likely to involve small, one-off runs. Later production was, of course, substantially greater.

Mike

Mike,
Also with respect, allow me to respond to some of your points. I too understand Occam's Razor and I generally shy away from the complicated explainations....although they are very often called for in 3rd Reich collecting as so many want to over simplify everything these days. I also have made it clear that other than what I know first hand about these smocks as fact, al else is an assumption or conjecture.

What led me down this road of conjecture and violation of Occam's Razor is the fact that all of the "reasons" that have been offered over the last 7 years on this forum as to these smocks being post war is also based on assumptions and conjecture. Indeeed Occam's Razor has been demonstrated to be invalid or not complied with in regards to the reasons and "problems" that people have expressed in saying that these smocks are not original because.......

In other words it is an extremely complicated scenario to specifically explain these smocks as post war made.

My explaination for every "problem" area raised about these smocks can be boiled down to this: Foriegn made contract on non standard rollers and made of local materials, limited run and many not issued.

That is about as simple as any explaination can get, but so many apparently do not want to even consider it.

What is funny is that so so many 100% accepted categories of items have just that or very similar to that type of background but somehow so many collectors say impossible when it comes to an SS smock.

As to your points on SS smock production (numbers and source), I agree that you (not some others however) were citing the 1940 one month delievery/production figure and not claiming it for every month. As far as I know there has NEVER been a published study or claim made to how many or the ID of the production source(s) for SS camo printed (or unprinted) fabric nor have ID source(s) been cited of where all these smocks (and other items) were sewn together. One obvious location for the later would be one or more of the camps. I have cited a memior from Ravensbruck in an earlier post as one of these locations there may have been dozens of others , we simply do not know.

[Palmenmuster]

Gentlemen, until I get a labtest on the cloth, I will comment on the fabric quality and rollerprint lenght.

In Norway, we had SS Bekleidungswerk Nord, situated in Oslo. They made all types of SS uniforms and caps. Unknown to most foreign collectors, a company named WC Møller in Drammen, made Oakleaf parkas with hood and lined with Sheep fur. The Parkas were made for 4. SS Politikompani in 1944.

The Oakleaf cloth used in these Parkas differ from "Standard" Oakleaf. It is made from a coarser grade cotton duck and the rollerprinting is longer than standard. After the war, the parkas were issued to the Homeguard together with huge stocks of standard smocks, zelts and helmetcowers.
The Norwegian War Academy had a stagecarpet made from this unusual Oakleaf.

I have a retired armyofficer friend, he brought with him a complete roll of Oakleaf fabric from the Homeguard depot ad I got a piece of the roll to document differences. Here are some hard facts:

Standard Oak fabric width are app. 140 cm and the pattern repeat after 46 cm.
"Norwegian" Oak width are 93 cm and the pattern repeat after 51 cm.

As you see, the width on the fabrick roll is much smaller, and the camouflageprint is longer before it repeat and as said before, cloth is from lesser quality cotton duck.

I asked my friend if the fabric was made in Norway or Germany but he dont know. I personally think its made in Germany.

Please look at the pictures were I have compared with a Zelt.

Best regards, Tom

[Palmenmuster]

Pic. nr. 2

[Palmenmuster]

Pic. nr. 3

[phild]

Tom, Very interesting information and I have heard of this unique pattern before. I guess since American (and maybe German) collectors/dealers have not encountered it before it could not have existed!

We all know now that the SS never deviated from standard cotton duck (except for hbt and brushed cotton ) so no inferior fabric as seen in the Norway items or the pink smocks could have been used!

The coments tend to indicate that the SS would prefer having no clothes rather than having to use some camo that was printed on larger rollers and having improvised extensions to fit those rollers as this would have ruined the effectivness of the camo pattern!

[pete]

.

I think fortunatley there is alot we know nd have seen, and i also think that theres alot "to" be seen. Keep sharing the info for future generations so its not lost.


Pete

[Mike C]

Tom, Very interesting information and I have heard of this unique pattern before. I guess since American (and maybe German) collectors/dealers have not encountered it before it could not have existed!

We all know now that the SS never deviated from standard cotton duck (except for hbt and brushed cotton ) so no inferior fabric as seen in the Norway items or the pink smocks could have been used!

The coments tend to indicate that the SS would prefer having no clothes rather than having to use some camo that was printed on larger rollers and having improvised extensions to fit those rollers as this would have ruined the effectivness of the camo pattern!

Hi Phild,

But we know precisely what this is - a unique garment produced by an occuppied country for a very small organization... A fair amount of documentation on this one - and a VERY small number of originals in existence. I think I have seen two for sale over the years...

But - hundreds of pink smocks (with a modified oakleaf pattern that goes way beyond width and repeat lengths) and no/nada/zip evidence what so ever that they were wartime issue.

Sorry...if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree! cheers,

Mike

[Lorenz]

Hello Kammo man!
I have a smock like this!
oakleaf "A" with a herringbone 44 dot pattern waistband for the elastic and the HBT green how reinforce on the neck!
It look very nice and unkommon, light used condition..
Lorenz

"and i even seen one jacket with a herringbone 44 dot wastband for the elastic!!!!
kammo man"

[kammo man]

Hi Guys
This is getting intresting , I cannot stop reading this thread.
Lorenz hi there, and I think you have a very special piece of camouflage history there .I love different patterns being mixed and used in the manufacturing of a single garment.
On the side note of me selling my fake pink smock for $100 , I believe that is all they are worth and the thought of me going on to Ebay and sticking it to another collector is not what I am about.
And what is funny thing is I sold it to a guy in the music industry who just wanted it to wear it as fashion.

[T.Braun]

"On the side note of me selling my fake pink smock for $100 , I believe that is all they are worth and the thought of me going on to Ebay and sticking it to another collector is not what I am about."

I appreciate your honesty however, I've seen three sales lately that clearly state that there are two schools of thought about these smocks and they all sold from $1350-$1900, two on this site and the one posted in the link above. I can't see it as "sticking it" to anyone who knows upfront what is going on with these.