Ss Smock Opinion

[Hilton]

Yes he has a some original stuff also, I think that he has been collecting since the 70´s. He used to always wear different types of ss camouflage garments on stage, and he also used a lot of WWII photos on the cover of his records :-) I dont think that he makes music anymore, but check them out on Youtube etc the name of the band is "Death in June". It would have been a nice story Kammo man if you were the one that provided him with his "Pink smock" :-)

[Matt1]

Its highly likely this links been posted before or at least the information included in it but just incase it hasn't then here it is:
http://www.atthefront.com/HR/g/uni_sscamo.html
Saying they originate from Berman & Nathan, a costume designer in London

[phild]

Its highly likely this links been posted before or at least the information included in it but just incase it hasn't then here it is:
http://www.atthefront.com/HR/g/uni_sscamo.html
Saying they originate from Berman & Nathan, a costume designer in London

I respect the ATF folks for their knowledge, but IMO that have most of the information on these smocks incorrect. The Berman and Nathan story got started a few years ago...it has since been pretty much proven wrong...these smocks DID NOT originate there and have nothing to do with them.

What we have learned as fact is they showed up in West-Germany around 1980 with many/most bearing Russian Gov. property stamping in one pocket....no one had a clue at the time what these stamps were as it would be another 10 years before the windfall of German uniform items would move west from Russia.....most bearing similar property stamps to these smocks.

[kammo man]

If anyone has an afternoon to sit by the computer to waste .......

Read this one thread about the "pinkies".

POST 69 clearly shows the SS helmet cover that was issued along side its cousin.

spike ,
post 201

[phild]

"POST 69 clearly shows the SS helmet cover that was issued along side its cousin."


More non-sense.

The cover clearly was not made from the same maker who made the smocks. The sewing style is very different as is the thread and the seams....age and eveything...other than it may have been made from one of the cut up smocks by a faker......it is certainly nothing against the smock.

[kammo man]

Phild .

You are insane not to think it is part of the same SWINDLE.
Only the faker ballsed up and exposed his underbelly.

owen

[phild]

Phild .

You are insane not to think it is part of the same SWINDLE.
Only the faker ballsed up and exposed his underbelly.

owen

I never saw or heard of any helmet covers showing up with these smocks or any made from this material showing up at any time IN ANY QUANTITY.

One thing is evident from the photo and that is the thread used in this cover as well as the way the seams and loops are sewn.....is very different that those characteristics as seen on the smocks....which tell me that they were not made at the same place.

Many attested to (by numerous and well respected collectors) facts about these smocks have never been addressed in a serious way....this is disturbing from a viewpoint that serious collectors must evaluate an item based on many things...not just 1:1 comparison to a known original(s)..unless they are authenicating items made from the same maker during the same time frame.....Otherwise 1:1 comparison will break down.....A WKC 1938 Heer dagger is different than an Alcoso 1938 Heer dagger and even different from a 1942 WKC dagger.....common sense. These smocks have always been judged ONLY to the Texled (KZ) made SS M-42 smocks....with no thought give that there could have been another source contracted to make a limited number based on non-standard sized stocks of suitable fabric found in a foreign country.....as was done with many many other German uniform items.

Facts never addressed on these smocks include but are not limited to:

Russian property stamps (unknown as such for at 10 years after they appeared!!)
Rodent eaten filthy examples on the outside of the bales.
Old well "sunken" seams showing honest age on all of the smocks.
High degree of hand work on all of the had sewn lace holes, exact and proper lay out of all of the parts with selvage used on the cuffs....which many German made SS smocks did not even use.
I can go on but we both know that there is no use.

[kammo man]

All the pullovers have been HOT washed to "age" them.

All smocks have been made in a nice factory.



I have 2 serious questions I would like you to answer.

Why were NO pinks found with their original strings ...if they all show honest wear.

last but not least

Have you compared side by side several pinks beside Genuine accepted SS camouflage pullovers?

If so how many original pullovers were there at the time and how many pinks .

owen

[pete]

.

I think we have got to look at this more logically from a "dog soldier" in Troop stores perspective. How many Military items are issued with "expendable" parts? As in, you get the item issued to you, but you don't get all parts of it when you get it which you have to ask for out of the box from the Troop supply Sgt? I don't think WW2 was any different in any army. These strings seem a cardboard box "expendable" item as they aren't exactly made of steel wire rope FGS! Also, I think the meaning of "well worn" is being misinterpreted here.



Regards,

Pete

[phild]

All the pullovers have been HOT washed to "age" them.

All smocks have been made in a nice factory.

I have 2 serious questions I would like you to answer.

Why were NO pinks found with their original strings ...if they all show honest wear.

last but not least

Have you compared side by side several pinks beside Genuine accepted SS camouflage pullovers?

If so how many original pullovers were there at the time and how many pinks .

owen

Owen,

I do appreciate the above questions:

I echo Pete on the issue of the neck string. They were not (probably) installed at the factory. I doubt that they would bother with a "neck lacer" position at the factory....maybe just throw in a bundle of strings (or not) tied into the bundle of smocks.....where they are now who knows....probably used as boot laces by Soviet soldiers who captured the depot.

Understand that I am not saying (nor do I believe to parrot LBJ a bit) that these smocks were ever issued...they show now signs of it. Some may in fact have been washed in bulk, but based on some that I have handled I'm not sure all were. Some were for sure very trashed when brought in. The age that I am talking about is not due at least in total to any washing.

You have to understand that I have been examining cloth (German WWII and WWI uniforms including SS camo) since the mid 1970s as a collector and student of the same. I was then nor am now an expert.....but I to have a good knowledge of sewing and fabric as it was at that level that I studied these even back then. The above matters not except to say that I was very critical in my analysis of these in 1981 when I purchased mine.....I have made mistakes along the way....but many things about these smocks are not easy to induce on fake items (more so in bulk) even today 30 years later when the understanding is much more than in 1980.

Yes I compared these smocks side by side to both standard roller print duck SS smocks and to an (1) hbt SS smock back in the 1981/82 time frame....no doubt that they are different.....if I had assumed that those two fabrics and sewing characteristics (i.e. a bit wild) had to be the criteria for all originals I would have not bought it...well maybe I would as it was still sort of neat for the money.

If these smocks were made at a commercial grade factory during WWII in whatever country, I can promise you that the sewing would have been neater and cleaner than KZ slave labor Texled produced smocks....and it in fact is as you question.

[B. N. Singer]

...They were not (probably) installed at the factory. I doubt that they would bother with a "neck lacer" position at the factory.....

Don't bet the farm on that.

B. N. Singer

[pete]

.

Honestly I don't know myself, I'm just saying it "could" be a reason for the lack of string at least in these. I have no idea about what is supposed to be normal and known with other Smocks that have alot of info on their production. I had one of these Pink smocks at one time also with no Neck string.


Regards,

Pete

[kammo man]

I just looked at a bunch of "Dead stock pullovers " .
All had factory installed string.

[phild]

I just looked at a bunch of "Dead stock pullovers " .
All had factory installed string.

I would and in fact did to myself way back when ask this question: If these were fakes and for sure made as movie props(which is a joke once you really understand the detail) and more for sure if post war "other" country military (I also think is impossible now) they would have for sure had neck strings.

How these smocks would have been shipped (neck string inserted or not or even provided by the maker or not) from a contracted factory in another country as opposed to the way Texled shipped the ones they made could have very well varied slightly.
I understand the question of "why no neck laces", but I just don't see it indicating anything either way if they are post or pre 45. I can and I think I have made just as strong a case that a fake post 45 smock(s) would have had a string.

I want to also say that the point raised earlier about the neatness of the sewing on these being out of character compared to Texled produced smocks is a good one, but if one really looks at all of the seams in these smocks I think that they will agree with me that the sewing is not to a typical commercial standard of neatness and exactness...which I realize varied. I am talking about sewing as was found in the 1960s and 1970s on commerical clothing.....which I am very familiar with.

[RobertE]

I just looked at a bunch of "Dead stock pullovers " .
All had factory installed string.

Are you saying you just saw a bunch of unissued smocks that you are absolutely sure never made it to unit issue stores? They were factory complete, ready to issue, but never made it to a unit where the strings could have been added? A big pile of them?