Waffen Ss Tropical Field Cap

[90th Light]

Nice eye! Regardless of the burn test this eagle does exhibits characteristics of copies other than what caught John's attention.
I had other concerns about that cap but the eagle wasn't one of them.
Cheers Steve

This was a question in my mind is the eagle a known fake because you can get mid to late war SS bevo eagles were the thread used to make the eagle is ersatz or early synthetic which can melt. The base cloth usually burns to ash however. Keep in mind the Germans were leading the world in this technology in the 1920's and 30's. You can encounter artifical thread on the "real-deal" Of course Du Pont developed "Nylon" on 28 Feb 1935 and the USA was soon in the lead with Nylon stockings in 1940 and all Nylon for military use in 1942.

All that melts or glows may not be bad

Chris

[John Hodgin]

All that melts or glows may not be bad
Chris

There is NO mistaking the way WW II synthetics melt when compared to modern polyester. They are not remotely similar, and Gunbunny is well aware of the difference.

[90th Light]

Hello John, I was not trying to question your decision regarding the cap and eagle. Clearly you have considered and taken other indictors into account. It seems that the eagle is a known fake to other collectors although this is not clear.

I have tried to point out however that just because something melts it may not be bad. As you correctly state the way it melts is different and it is never as shiny. How many collectors get the chance to actually do a range of burn tests on real items ? and what worries me is that we as collectors over generalise these rules of thumb.

Let me please make this very clear so I am not accused of being naive. If something melts or glows it has a far greater chance of being bad than good but this alone should not be the decider. One must then look for other indicators to back up the finding. If the item is fake they will be there. On the black light test, the glow from good or bad synethics can also be different.

On this one John, I too must complement you on your good instincts, Chris

[wisches]

This was a question in my mind is the eagle a known fake because you can get mid to late war SS bevo eagles were the thread used to make the eagle is ersatz or early synthetic which can melt. The base cloth usually burns to ash however. Keep in mind the Germans were leading the world in this technology in the 1920's and 30's. You can encounter artifical thread on the "real-deal" Of course Du Pont developed "Nylon" on 28 Feb 1935 and the USA was soon in the lead with Nylon stockings in 1940 and all Nylon for military use in 1942.

All that melts or glows may not be bad

Chris

interesting, can anybody show examples of pre-'45 arm eagles that would "melt"?this would help loads.
and as for this particular cap eagle being a known copy, we need more help from the moderator maybe, he has a vast photo collection!

[John Hodgin]

Let me please make this very clear so I am not accused of being naive. If something melts or glows it has a far greater chance of being bad than good but this alone should not be the decider. Chris

Very true Chris, and I agree totally. Again however, WW II period synthetics do not melt and burn like modern ones. If it melts into a hard ball, RUN AWAY!

My MAIN concern is that newer collectors reading this thread not be confused into thinking that this cap MIGHT perhaps be authentic. It is not.

Regards,
John

[John Hodgin]

John,

I got confused here... which cap is NOT authentic?

Bob

Hi Bob,

Typo, meant to say "Gunbunny's cap eagle." However, I am not sure about his cap either.
Regards,
John

[Langemark]

“Synthetic thread” should not be confused with “artificial thread”.

The Germans made extensive use of artificial thread which contents natural and vegetable fibres (mainly wood). As John rightly observed, the burning test is different and also smells different compared to Nylon synthetic thread.

On the other hand, it is true that the Germans developed their own synthetic Nylon-like-thread under the term ‘Perlon’ long before the war and that they valued its strength. However, they made very limited use of it during the war and obviously never on any insignia. The simple and logical reason for it is that synthetic thread was developed and intended for intensive use … and BeVo insignia doesn’t really fall in this category.

If this can be of any help ...
Mark

[90th Light]

Thank you to all who have responded to the point I raised.

I think this is a very interesting issue and worthy of a thread on its own. The Germans were using a range of materials under the generic idea of "Ersatz" and on top of this they were very much part of the Petro-chemical race which was going on at that time. How such materials respond to heat and a naked flame can be difficult to predict with out doing it. I would put to all reading this however that in their efforts to make an "artifical silk" petro compounds were used. Such fibre is an exception rather than a norm but it does exsit. This could explain why some thread glows under a black light or appears to melt when subjected to heat.

I am in no way trying to question any-one . What has been shared here is interesting and adding to my understanding. I will try and arrange to have a picture posted of a period ss eagle which has done strange things under heat to illustrate what I have encountered.

Chris

[wisches]

thank you chris,
that would be helpfull

[Wickie]

Hello!

I hope this is the right thread for my question. Can anybody tell me something about this photo?
Their uniforms, particulary the caps, look a little strange in my eyes.

Thanks
Christian

[Wickie]

...

[John Hodgin]

The shirts and the caps (center and right) look to be of Italian manufacture.
Regards,
John

[Wickie]

Thanks Bob and John for the information

[90th Light]

I have just read through this thread again and thought I would bring it to the top because there are two new observations I have made;

1/ SJP's example in post number 33 has an SS tropical sleeve eagle not the rare SS tropical cap eagle in place ????

2/ Gunbunny's example in post number 35 appears to be the now questionable "aluminium grommet" maker. From what I can tell from computer images, this cap has the characteristics of that maker. The type of twill used which could well be period, the size only marking and the way the eagle is sewn along the top and then flipped over and machine stitched around the sides & swaz laurels. (SS tropical billed M41/ 42's with machine appied insignia just do not seem to be the norm).

This is typical of this maker and I would be very interested to know if those grommets are the coated crimped aluminium type which collectors do not like by this unknown maker who is suspected of making these caps in the 1980's & 90's

This maker is also currently being discussed in relation to a Panzer cap on the estand and has had their WH tropical billed M40 caps discussed more than once.

This is however the first example of a SS tropical cap which I have ever seen by them and this I find very interesting in fact I am surprised we have not seen more. They are very convincing at first glance.

Great thread, Chris

[dakcollector]

SS tropical visor field cap?

Hey guys,

I'm happy I found this great thread! I've got a chance to pick up an SS tropical visor field cap but want to first run it by you. I primarily collect DAK/LW/KM tropical caps but the SS tropical "version" has always intriqued me.

I once owned the SS tropical visor cap in Mike Beaver's original SS camo book (page 240) which is also photgraphed in the Kurtz book on German tropical militaria (page 178).

This cap has an identical maker stamp (Paul Wagenmann Inh W. Hehner) as the Mike Beaver/Kurtz cap! The cap is mint/unissued unlike the used Beaver/Kurtz example but the eagles are not the same. Strangely, I've also seen two other Wagenmann stamps on SS tropical caps that are very different (and from a different city!) when compared to this stamp... but I still believe this is an original SS tropical field cap because of the solid provenance behind the Beaver cap.

My only concern is the eagle. Is it an original, reproduction or sleeve eagle?

I will post a few images of the cap and eagle in question as well as some images of the Beaver/Kurtz cap I once owned...

Thanks,
David