Visor cap fans - check this out

[BenVK]

looks like Jurgen Wagner..?

That would make sense as Wagner surrended to the Americans in Tangermünde which is very near the Elbe isn't it?

Ben,
There is a clear still photo of that officer in the 1st pic in Han Dollinger's "The Decline and Fall of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan", I'll try to post it tonight.
A great book by the way, it only covers the last days of the war, many good photos not found in other books.
Regards,
Fred

[Matthew S.]

Branch-piped SS visor caps are in the same boat as helmets with foreign volunteer decals: they are out there but are just rarer than hell. Of course, that is one of the draws of this hobby.

[billbert]

The still shot with ss officer at capture shows the americans to be 102nd cz division me thinks..Billbert

[Martin Stiles]

That would make sense as Wagner surrended to the Americans in Tangermünde which is very near the Elbe isn't it?

Hi, Ben , It most certainly is Wagner, and what a poor way he was handled by the allies! Also dont you get tired of the colored piped cap witch hunt?
cheers, Martin

[John Pic]

1944 was one year before the wars end and smocks I imagine were recycled clothing and worn as well throughout the war. He could have joined at anytime who knows.But for this combat officers hat to stay in excellent condition from 41-45 is difficult for me to fathom unless he has only had it for a year or so. I wear canvas hat at work only during the seasons that require one and within a year my hat was worn pretty hard and within two needed to be replaced.

I agree these and any real SS cap are rare,however Its a diservice to suggest that any one has the answer as to how many there are a "handfull" a hand can hold one grapefruit or 100 raisins even 1000 poppyseeds so that tells us nothing.No one knows for sure. I know of one that was thought to be fake and on exam meets all the required specs of an original even the age factor..it was bought as a fake to be filler and the previous owner was convinced by others that a color piped cap couldnt possibly be real, no hands on was done by any real expert and thats the only reason he thought it fake,blind opinion and it may very well not be which is why one must be very careful in assesments of these items and try not to generalize everything.

As a side note I knew an Inteligence Sgt. who was billeted in Wagners home at the end of the war. He took one of his uniforms,dress belt,chained dagger and for whatever reason Wagner had a government officials dagger.The Sgt. had photographs of himself taken in an inebriated state with Wagners uniform on and Wagners wife sitting on his lap.I think he said her name was "Sophie" but I havent talked to him since 1986. I bought the dress belt and chained dagger from him and later sold them. He lost the uniform to someone who borrowed it for a halloween party and kept the other dagger and photos.He told me how Wagner was hung by the Communists after he was turned over to them.

[BenVK]

!Also dont you get tired of the colored piped cap witch hunt?
cheers, Martin

Hi Martin, ha ha no I don't really. I'm fairly new to this hobby but I've been around long enough to hear pretty much all the opinions about wear out periods and Himmler directives etc etc. For me, a photo or photos speak louder than a hundred post war opinions, no offence to anyone.

I would like to turn this thread into a quest to post your coloured piped ss visor database. If you've got a photo, post it here. I have a few on file, I'll post them when the whisky has worn off.

Cheers
Ben

[Bobwirtz]

Post your branch colored service cap? It's already been done several times on this forum alone. Use the search.

Bob

[BenVK]

Post your branch colored service cap? It's already been done several times on this forum alone. Use the search.

Bob

Yeah, thanks Bob, no wonder these forums are dying out..

[BenVK]

Just to clarify, Bob, I respect your opinion but whether you like it it or not, there's a new breed of collector around these days who do not blindly follow the old brigade. We do not take it for granted that what you old timers say is true on trust, we do our own homework and draw our own conclusions and that's exactly what I've done. I could say that your posts in this thread that I posted have been patronizing in the extreme but that would show no respect, and just to clarify again, I do respect your opinions. Please do me the curtesy of showing the same respect.
People have said that differences on this forum have been caused by the young guns showing no respect. That's not true IMO. In my life, you only deserve respect by the way you act and what you say, and whether your 18 or 88 that's what it comes down to..

[Bobwirtz]

No disrespect meant Ben. I simply said that you go your way and I'll go mine. Yes, I'm an old timer in this hobby and have seen a lot come and go so I base my opinions on that experience and for those here that heed my words, so be it. I don't think anybody can go wrong considering my opinions. These forums certainly weren't around many years ago when I started collecting. I had to learn the old-fashioned way: handling items and comparing. I had an advantage too: there weren't nearly the number of collectors then that there are today so I had less competition and there was a lot of material free floating. So I could do a lot of touching and feeling real stuff. And even though the fakes back then were rather parochial, they still managed to fool many of us - present company included. And we paid big bucks in those days for stuff too if you consider that we didn't make as much money back then - it's all relative. So you younger guys have the advantage that modern communications can provide, but you don't have tons of good stuff laying around to view, touch and feel. I guess it's all relative in the long run. Use your knowledge that you've gained from these forums and what you've read in the textbooks and handle at shows and go after what you want. I simply stated that I've seen damned few of these branch colored caps around - ones that I know for certain are genuine - and whenever I see one on the forums, or at shows, or dealer's websites, I assume it is a reproduction until it can be proven (to my standards) that it is the real deal. I apologize if you've taken humor for sarcasm. I guess this old timer needs to learn how to use the little icons with the smilie faces or something. Era pictures are great and provide a lot of information but they don't tell us everything. And just because you found a picture (very interesting by the way), that doesn't mean that the practice was widespread. Take camouflaged field caps with camouflaged insignia for example... how many pictures can you find with these and how many of these are known to exist today - 4 perhaps? I'll bet you can find more pictures of them in use than 4...

Bob

still

[sskev]

Hi

Could it just be, this guy had seen so much action etc that his visor
had just got dirty and discoloured the piping, because as we all know the ones
we see on the forums are very nice and clean and probably never seen a battlefield, unlike this poor chap.

Just my observation I`m just beginning to learn

kev

[BenVK]

Hi Bob, no harm done I hope. I understand what your saying and I agree with a lot of it especially the part about assuming these things are repro until they can be proven to be real. That wasn't really the point of the thread though, I was just posting some images that I found interesting.

[Bobwirtz]

And I appreciate seeing these. How did the narration go with it? Did they know this guy was a Waffen-SS officer? It's amazing to me how little journalists know about this stuff, yet they expect the "Pulizter Prize" for their pieces! I remember when Waldheim (I think that was his name) was running for President of Austria, the press went wild with showing pictures of him with German and Italian generals during the war. What they didn't show - always managed to crop out - was SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Arthur Phleps, who commanded the 7. SS-Freiwilligen-Gebirgs-Division "Prinz Eugen" and later V. SS-Gebirgs-Korps. Because of their ignorance they could have linked him to the Waffen-SS and made a much bigger splash. They could have gotten that "SS" connection and been assured of his defeat. It's one thing to have served in the German Army during WW2, but being connected with the Waffen-SS and their anti-Partisan warfare operations in the Balkans would have iced the cake! Yes... an interesting picture, but how did the documentary handle it?

No, I don't think the cap is dirty. This is a branch colored visor cap. Color? Engineer maybe. He's carrying quite a load of equipment to be signals or artillery... plus the smock gives me the impression of a grunt - related to infantry or panzergrenadier...

Bob