WSS caps eagle and tk marks

[Gary Wood]

here is a comparison of the 155 and the m1/72 eagle

[Pascal H.]

Gary,
I’m definitely not an expert on metals, but the eagle I’ve got is not magnetic. I would guess it’s made from German silver “neusilber”. The two broken pins (something I did almost 30 years ago ), I think are made from brass. But as I told you before I’m not an expert and it’s only a guess.
I think you are right about the sharpness of the makers mark, it looks indeed that the ones you posted looking more defined then the ones on mine.
Hope that this was of any help,

Pascal

[Rick Turner]

Hey Gary, threw ya a curve didn’t I, or you probably think these cap device markings have finally made me go bonkers!

I’m O.K., keeping an open mind and trying to remain neutral in my observations was a New Years resolution for my future collecting. Don’t worry, I’m still with you guys, I would love to see the 36-date pan out with the 155-contract number.

My comments are an indication of problems (that we know exist) that add to the difficulty in being 100% sure until documentation is discovered. And while there certainly is nothing out there that says Assmann didn’t use the ’36 date, its always been my thinking that we will never find a NOT smoking gun.

We need to look for orders or any other official correspondence that would indicate Assmann production in ’36, sales catalogs, anything. As collectors we may decide based on materials used and type of construction that a piece HAS THE POTENTIAL of being original, but as they say, no job is finished until the paper work is complete. I agree there are numerous variables to production that could have an outcome on when this number first appeared; those ideas just need to be researched out to some conclusion.

Keep diggin’, I’m right behind you!!

Rick

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

I would like to add some coments regarding latest inputs:

- I doubt any former well known author/big collector will be able to bring evidence Assmann received his 155 number by ANY date. Assmann familly NEVER gave information or provided documentation about the firm activity during the war. It is a total silence wall since 1945, and still remains.
Any reference we have come from either documents (letters, original sales catalogs, etc...) found in personnal collections or War archives around the world. So far, any of those information outlets had been screened so many time that any new find was already published. Remaining archives not read are not open to the public. Furthermore, we are very lucky that many makers did use at some time their own trademark along with their RZM/SS code, or have very distinctive design we could track back only to their own catalog. Assmann was one of them, with many items produced with a unique design (like his SS Belt Buckles) helping to place a name on a number.
This is why personnal input from a obscure collector having an unknown original document and/or item can much more bring some light at this moment concerning Assmann. Up to us to know how reliable could be the item/document.

- On the point Assmann receiving his number by 1936 and waiting to use it for mass production, could be. BUT there is many examples of buckles produced before the RZM period which were over-stamped with RZM markings, RZM produced buckles which were over-stamped with RZM/SS contact numbers (within the same factory). So, during the early RZM or RZM/SS years, looks like if they wanted to move the production or do not have any left overs from the former, makers had to comply to new regulations ASAP. Having the engraver making a new die was not expensive, and certainly more cost effective than having the former production unsold or passing it thru over-stamping. Second, we also have to keep in mind Assmann was not only a maker but also a huge wholesaler. In his catalogs there is items he never produced himself, but just selling from others. So, if a new item not yet produced was ordered for quick delivery there is chances he would resale when in the meantime setting his own production.
But anyway, whenever Assmann received his 155 number, as long we are sure one SS item bearing 155/36 is 100% original, means he got his number earlier or within the year of 1936, but not after ! We know for a fact that the 1937 production is marked 155/37 and even if Assmann started the 1937 production with remaining 1936 dies (why not), still the /36 date means by 1936 he had his number handy (he will not produce a die in 1937 with an obsolete date).

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

As another note, Assmann was a very large maker/wholeseler. The same is true with Overhoff who received his 36 RZM/SS number by, at least 1936 (if not by 1935 !).
It would be surprising, even if possible, that Assmann stayed out of SS supplies for too long ...

[Gary Wood]

Rick/Jean Pierre ,
all good points, I think more research is the way forward, one thing I have noticed is I have not seen many ss cap eagles with the code 155/36, so would ask anyone with photo's of them to post them please, also if you know other collectors with the same type of eagle let us know so we can get an idea of how many are around.

cheers,
Gary

[Gary Wood]

"The two broken pins (something I did almost 30 years ago ), I think are made from brass. "

Langemarck
are both sets of broken pins brass? I can see the base of those over large round brass ones but what about the stumps behind them from the other pins?
cheers,
Gary

[AlikN]

Hi Guys,
I looked true the threads about the cap sculls here and on GD.com
and I didn’t find this number on bad list and it’s not on the good list.
Can you help to add this number to one list or the other?
Thanks
Alik

[AlikN]

Side view.

[AlikN]

Reverse.

[AlikN]

Markings.

[Pascal H.]

Gary,

Both sets are definitely not from brass. It looks like the first ones were flat pins (I can’t tell you from which material they are made off). The second ones (and newest) are the round brass ones. When I got the eagle there were only the round pins on it.
So the round pins probably had to replace the flat pins.

Pascal

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Hello All,

This post is valid assuming I well understood the writen texts.

In overall resume we can use:

On the eagle shown by Gary/Rick:

1 - The eagle is nicely finished
2 - It has flat pins
3 - Looks like it is probably made from nickel silver
4 - Is the one believed to be an original

On the eagle shown by Langemark:

5 - The eagle is not so nicely finished
6 - Flat pins seems to be the original set up
7 - Looks like it is probably NOT made from nickel silver
8 - Is the one believed to be a reproduction
9 - Was bought in the 70's
10 - Pins broke (not one but two)

What do we know from fakes made in the 70's ? Mostly casts from an original item, with lack of details and flaws resulting from the casting process. Attention to finish was not top priority and metal used was either very soft (lead based) either very brittle. So 9 could result in 5, 6 and 10

How could we cast any eagle without removing first its pins ? Impossible. So, we cut as close as possible them, cast the eagle and add new pins. Further enforces 6.

Someone smart or wishing to have something very nice will solder the new pins to cover the old base. 9 could be the reason.

Material usually employed for current fakes try to match the original metal. It was not the case earlier. 9 brings 7.

So far, I guess Gary input ("I do have concerns about the eagle they might be valid concerns they might be not, the markings on yours look less defined also the pins, either they have broken and been replaced with round brass pins or the broken pins are part of the badge in other words the eagle is a casting from another badge") is the valid one, and I still believe (it is just a belief for now) the first eagle is correct and the second is the 70's cast from the first.

From an historical point, Assmann was producing very high quality items. I did not compare period price lists, but it is logical to expect Assmann products been more expensive than others. So, following this idea, whoever was buying such SS eagle was either an officer, either an EM/NCO with above average income. It is very unlikely that such person will "repair" broken pins on his eagle but will likely buy a new one !!

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Here is the Assmann SS eagle from the Assmann catalog
You will note Item number 24096.
Assmann item number 24065 was introduced (started in production) in 1936.

Assmann item number 24250 was introduced (started in production) in 1936.

So, it confirms the Assmann SS eagle was introduced in 1936 as well. Still remains to know if the earlier 1936 production was marked RZM M1/17 (which is said to be marked on fakes) or RZM 155/36 SS ?

If I am refering (again and always) to SS Buckles, by 1936 the RZM/SS contract number was enforced !! Remaining RZM numbers were ground off and replaced (over-stamping) with RZM xx/36 SS numbers. So ...

[giorgio]

Gary,
could you post a pic of the back of your m1/72 eagle?
thanks a lot
Giorgio