WSS caps eagle and tk marks

[Rick Turner]

Hi Jean

I was wondering what your thoughts are on the use (or not) of this 155/36 contract number. I’ve never seen it in great quantity, only a very few pieces, I’ve never seen it on a cap skull and I’ve certainly never seen a 34 or 35 version. Do you think this is too early for this 'type' of contract number?

Thanks very much.
Rick

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Hello Rick,

Just send me an email to jpredeu@videotron.ca and we will talk more freely on this subject since it is one I do not wish to comment right now on open forums (don't know who can read it).

Best Regards

[Rick Turner]

After communicating with Jean and comparing notes and ideas, the 36 dated Assmann pieces should be considered unconfirmed until additional information such as sales and acquisitions come to light that show the number actually in use.

There is a good possibility that they did but in all fairness I can’t see information related to period use to substantiate the number 100%.

[Pascal H.]

Assmann cap eagle

I would like to ask the opinion about an Assmann SS cap eagle I own. It’s exactly (IMO) the same as Gary’s. I got very interested in this eagle because the eagle I own came on a complete SS cap which I bought in the mid seventies. The only difference is that I bought this cap as a clearly marked copy.
In this thread I’m reading that this eagle is (probably) regarded as the real thing.
So maybe I was wrong all those years and someone sold me by mistake the real thing? Why not? They sell copies as originals too (by mistake), don’t they? )
I’m hoping that someone can solve this mystery and tell us a bit more about these Assmann’s eagles.

Pascal

[Pascal H.]

Back

[Pascal H.]

Detail

[Gary Wood]

Pascal,
can you provide pictures of the pin area, it looks like it has had 2 sets of pins one set being flat and the other set being round or am I seeing thing ,
cheers,
Gary

[Pascal H.]

Gary,
Here are two more pictures of the pin area.

Pascal

left

[Pascal H.]

right

[Rick Turner]

Member Langemarck I’m very interested in the eagle you’ve posted and the fact that it came off a clearly marked reproduction. I’ve been trying to gather information on this ’36 number (which doesn’t seem to exist). The person that originally posted the eagle was a very good collector and I want to hear his thoughts and the origins of the piece before trying to draw a conclusion.

Collectors that have been asking “but how can you be sure?” are correct and I’ve been digging for that information. In recent months my focus has been on the 155/36 eagle. Someone else originally posted that eagle on another forum. So far I’ve been unable to receive an answer from someone that will know more about this particular eagle. In all fairness, both of us have been out of town much of the time and have not been able to follow-up on the subject.

I’ve discussed the issue of this NOT being a legitimate SS contract number at the time (1936) with several (research/author) individuals in recent weeks and still have a couple more to make contact with. I’m sorry to report that so far no one can tell me or show any documentation of any type that would indicate Assmann used these numbers on these items at this time (1936).

Now that someone can say they found one of these on a reproduction SS hat that raises a red flag for me, plus a couple other things-

1. The general construction appearance is very similar to that of some very good reproduction eagles (but I’m still looking into that, need more time to research photos of other ‘known’ reproductions).

2. Reproductions with the large chest feathers do exist. (Originals as well, which doesn’t make it any easier)

3. Myself, I don’t like the flat wide squared off prongs, which appear to be made from the same base material as the eagle, nor the fact that there are only two. I find it interesting that they were cut off and replaced (with way too large of a round prong) on member Langemarck’s example.

Right now I’m remaining open minded about it but would certainly like to know if anyone has any other examples of anything else using this number 155/36. Cap skulls and additional eagles would also be nice.

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Hello All,

I started this concern since I have in my "working" folder not a cap eagle but a SS Buckle marked RZM 155/36 SS as well. This SS Buckle is full of un-answered questions and oddities, and even if I personnaly tend to believe it is a genuine SS Buckle, I do not forget it could be a fake as well. So far I was not able to get a strong direction either way. This eagle, when first posted, was the only link I was able to find and follow, but personnal correspondance with Rick and Langemark brought me back to start.
This SS Buckle was tracked back to the late 70's, not earlier so far.

That is it for my side. What could be interesting to know about the cap eagle is:

a) There is no repro of this eagle, and so both are original (good link for the SS Buckle)

or

b) There is a fake reproducing an original (in that way the marking RZM 155/36 SS EXISTS ON ORIGINALS (where can we find reliable reference to it is another question) - in such case we "could" have pictured there an original eagle and its corresponding reproduction (up to you Guys to tell) but we have reference that by 1936 Assmann was using his RZM/SS contract number 155 (neutral link for the SS Buckle)

or

c) The fake is based on a totally wrong marking RZM 155/36 SS. In that case, it would help to clear at least both eagles as fake, but yet fakers could have made it for SS cap eagles only but found its reference somewhere else, which will not help for a SS Buckle (neutral link for the SS Buckle)

or

d) Assmann NEVER received his RZM/SS contract number by 1936 and so both cap eagles and SS Buckle are repros (definitively bad link for the SS Buckle)

[Pascal H.]

Thank you very much for all your clear information. Don’t misunderstand me. I am not saying that the eagle I posted IS a copy (in fact I’m hoping it is not) but all I’m saying is that I bought it as a reproduction.
I hope that someone will come up with some more information on the 155/36 so that we can clear this 155/36 mystery.
I will keep on following this highly interesting thread and hope that whenever Rick, Jean Pierre or someone else receive some more information on this subject they will post it on this forum.

Regards,
Pascal

[Gary Wood]

Rick

Rick,
just thinking out aloud here,

I’ve discussed the issue of this NOT being a legitimate SS contract number at the time (1936) with several (research/author) individuals in recent weeks and still have a couple more to make contact with. I’m sorry to report that so far no one can tell me or show any documentation of any type that would indicate Assmann used these numbers on these items at this time (1936).

Rick but do they have evidence assmann did not use this number this early? ,

Now that someone can say they found one of these on a reproduction SS hat that raises a red flag for me, plus a couple other things-

I think that is a good point but , I have seen original caps with repro insignia and repro caps with original insignia , so again no real move forward


2. Reproductions with the large chest feathers do exist. (Originals as well, which doesn’t make it any easier)

Again I do not think this is a factor as originals have the large feather, what might help would be to compare original assamnn eagles with the one marked 155/36 to see if or what differences there are

3. Myself, I don’t like the flat wide squared off prongs, which appear to be made from the same base material as the eagle, nor the fact that there are only two. I find it interesting that they were cut off and replaced (with way too large of a round prong) on member Langemarck’s example.

Many originals have 2 prongs as well as 3 prongs, also many reprodution have the same combination

I think the tracking down of when the contract number was issued is the most important if that is possible, and when it was awarded the number might have no real bearing to when they integrated it into there badge manufacture, this could have taken anything from a week to ????to change the markings on the dies or cut new dies, who knows!!!, they certainly would not change everything over night so hypothetically they might have used the code on the eagle first then at a later date changed the marking on the belt buckle or visa versa again who knows?????

[Gary Wood]

Langemarck
Thanks for posting the other pictures, I do have concerns about the eagle they might be valid concerns they might be not, the markings on yours look less defined also the pins, either they have broken and been replaced with round brass pins or the broken pins are part of the badge in other words the eagle is a casting from another badge, again I can not really say 100% either way from just the pictures, Can you tell what the eagle is made from? and what the stumps of the broken pins are made from?
cheers,
Gary

[Gary Wood]

I have been trying to get in touch with a collector in the UK that I know has again a 155 but I can not remember what the date was, I will keep trying to see and if possible to get pictures, I would also ask if anyone else has an ss caple eagle with this marking 155 to post pictures the more example we have to scrutinise the better :-)
cheers,
Gary