There is probably not a more controversial field of cap collecting than the short-issue "branch-piped" visor of the Waffen-SS during 1940. Websites abound with them, yet very few are deemed authenic by the collecting community. Do you have such a cap that you would be willing to share for the scrutiny of forum members?
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this will be interesting.......
I'll post my one when I get home.
What about posting ones we know are fake already? -
Eigenmaechtigkeiten
At the outset, let me say that the assertion that these caps were worn solely for six or eight months is a red herring, no pun intended. I do not have an image to post, but I shall cite from a book I bought in Vienna this week that has some bearing on this issue, however indirect. The work is that of Schlicht and Kraus on the Uniforms of the Reichswehr, published by Stefan Rest in Vienna, whom I have met en passant. The ISBN 3902526009 and Rest's Verlag is at www.militaria.at . Rest has also published wonderful volumes on the K.u.K. army, as well as a work on the German uniforms of the era 1914-1918 which is outstanding. The Reichswehr book is surely the finest one I have ever seen on military regalia of any kind, and puts the Schiffer books as well as the Bender books quite to shame. Schlicht's work should be known to some via Bender, and Kraus is the director of the Bavarian Army Museum in Ingolstadt, which had and has one of the leading collections of militaria in Germany, together with the collections in the Berlin Zeughaus and the Badenese Rastatt Museum. The latter contained the remnants of the Prussian and Baden military museums of their day. The Reichswehr book has value to collectors of SS uniforms, as the work at hand illustrates uniforms of the era 1918-1935 in a manner that is truly extraordinary, in the sense of the citation of the relevant regulations, as well as very detailed colored images of the objects themselves. This interpretation is done to the highest standard, and suffers from none of the random-ness and amateurism that so afflicts most of the literature on regalia. That is, a cap, with no text via explanation, or some modicum of research. In the work at hand, the authors have left no stone unturned.
There is also less of the glamor collector/ glamor dealer cult of personality here. The Ingolstadt museum was a repository for the official Proben (i.e. examples/patterns &c.) and most of the work illustrates these in the first instance, and less material drawn solely from some clique of glamor collectors with vested interests. Scholarship profits as a result, I dare say. (addendum: I notice that Rest asserts that Hermann Historica helped to publish the volume, and I shall leave to others whether this fact aids the truth or harms it, but I did not see any piece in the illustrations that struck me as fake or put together...others may know more than I do....)
P124 of said work contains a list of non-regulation items of clothing, as well as contraventions of practice. The authors point out that this list of trespasses reflects what was ACTUALLY WORN, versus what was prescribed in the regulations. Commanders were repeatedly enjoined to forbid and even punish such violations, but, by dint of the frequency with which they received such warnings over the years, the evidence here rather indicates that somewhat of a laissez faire attitude operated in the post-1918 heir to the Prussian army---a legacy of the war and surely of a common sense spirit about matters of military life. The list of forbidden, but nonetheless frequently encountered, even legion examples of Eigenmaechtigkeit included: a.) buttons of glossy finish with or w/mo pebbling vs. the matte variety; b.) narrow NCO shoulder boards that appear to be those of an officer; c.) violations with the finish of Tressen on the Mantel (glossy versus matte); Tunics with patch side pockets as well as overall tailoring in dark green textiles vs. field grey; tunic and Mantel collars made from black-green textiles versus field grey badge cloth; Hosen in field grey vs. slate grey; piping on caps, tunics and trousers rendered wider than 2 mm; cap visors without the regulation edging, especially in the case of cavalry formations ( I assume these are of leather... vs. Vulkanfiber); belt in the English style with visible stiching, as well as leather covered buckle; Faehnriche in uniform devoid of appropriate Tressen.
Now I would interpret this list thus: plainly, the Reichswehr, altogether more disciplined than the Nazi armed formations to which it believed itself wholly superior, less adhered to dress regulations than the group think, history channel interpretation of Prussian-German arms would indicate. This kind of list reflects what actually happened, versus what the leadership insisted should be the case or what the secondary literature and the collector group think have perpetuated as dogma. Such evidence is important and we need more of it for the SS, actually, which was plainly (despite what you might want to think...) a less cohesive, organic, disciplined entity than the Reichswehr, which was much smaller, more homogeneous and, in its best years (1921-1933) more able to get a grip on things than was the organization in which we are here interested. So, despite all this meine Ehre heisst Treue stuff, I am sure the SS was less disciplined than the regular soldiers---a demonstrated fact which must have also applied to regalia, as well. Just read the SS DAL's as to who was thrown out each year, as well as Himmler's prissy, nattering correspondence on this score in its published version. I was struck with the Schlicht/Kraus book in hand by this list of no-nos, as well as to the degree that the uniforms of the pre-1918 era, that is the 2d Reich (alte Armeen) were also worn in the Reichswehr for years after 1919. The above little screed does not answer the crucial, endless question directly, but it surely offers context and insight into an issue that suffers from far too much dogmatism and anachronism. This being said, though, most caps I have seen with colored piping are fake, but this fact speaks to the present and rather less to the past.Last edited by Donald Abenheim; 12-29-2005, 05:58 AM.Comment
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piped visor
This one was real , but I no longer own it.Comment
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piped visor
side viewComment
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piped visor
insignia were zinc with almot all the finished absorbed.Comment
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hot on the heels of Kevin's is my officers Gebirgsjäger visor. The body of the cap is made from pre-war material. Not a stitch out of place - it could be a perfect fake.
I would like to hear comments on it - good or bad....
Following on from what Donald said, there is a section in the Wilkin's book, about the Uniformen-Markt having articles discussing German headgear manufacturer's not following the regulations and some even starting production without knowing any of the regulations. I wonder how long this went on and whether it continued past the period of issue of color piped visors for the Waffen-SS??Comment
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the inside. The cap has seen some but not much wear. No makers marks just a small celluloid diamond, pressed paper sweatband and creme rayon lining.
I assume a parade piece (or "depot queen" I heard it called)Last edited by TonyS; 12-29-2005, 02:36 AM.Comment
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insignia
here you can get a better idea of the green flecked Trikot used in the cap bodyComment
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Bob please post the photos you have.Comment
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Farben, Vorstoesse, Biesen, Paspelisierungen
This is entirely my point. My wild a%% guess (Hegel's historical cunning, as it were...) would now be that someone wore Waffenfarbe on the cap before 1940, and surely, many wore it long after the dorky RFSS told them to cease doing so. Look at all the army badges on uniforms and headgear in the SSVT in the era 1934, 1935 and 1936, for instance. Derek Chapman has full command of the primary sources, and maybe he has insight into some document on this score. I do know that the Waffen SS people got extremely peeved when the SD began to wear military-style shoulder boards, which led to the introduction of the police-one-off types in 1941/2. There is documentary evidence that speaks to this. Part of the files of the Persoenlicher Stab RFSS in the Bundesarchiv in Berlin deal directly with regalia, and I believe Mollo used the microfilmed versions of these in his books. Derek Chapman has also taught us that many of the items regarded as regulation were worn before the formal introduction of same, as a kind of ex post facto recognition of the normative power of facts. In any case, if I had the documentary evidence before me, I would be happy to look into all of it, but until I re-settle to a venue closer to the archives, &c. I have other fish to fry as a scholar-researcher. The Schlicht/Kraus book, however, shifted the paradigm a bit for me; but if you look in the 1935 regulations of the Wehrmcht-Heer you also see a number of issues permitted which were likely a reluctant blessing of things one could not stop anyway. Germans had more important things to do, with so many people in uniform, than fuss about the width of piping, or of its color, especially granted the manner in certain SS-at-arms types sought to imitate the military in various ways, i.e. Soldaten wie andere auch. The issue of color of facings and pipings had been a problem decades before the SS ever lurched into being, in fact. The requirement here for those of us who seek some insight beyond gun show dogma or dealer Diktat is this: beyond the existing photographic evidence, where are the documentary traces among the files of the uniform fairies and quartermaster types, or even in the articles of Uniformenmarkt on this score? They surely exist, granted how pettifogging HH could be on so many other details. Remember, his father was a Privatdozent to the Wittelsbach court, with the emphasis on Hofzeremoniell ppp.Originally posted by TONY2411
All the same, the bulk of grey SS caps on the market, whether with white piping or colored piping, are stinkers plain and simple. I think one has to look with skepticism on the white ones, too, actually, and not merely on the rainbow of the arms themselves. However, this issue speaks to the collector biotope of the here and now and not to the more intriguing question of what really happened in the past versus the warped, filtered, and mis- shapen image we have fashioned of same via our own misunderstandings, dogmatism and anachronistic application of today's world to the past. Sapere aude. Postscriptum: I examined Kevin's cap, by the way, and thought it to be 110% authentic, actually. Its previous owner thought it to have been SD, but it was for a rifles unit, in fact. Its interior was identical to the piece on Whammond's site with white piping.Last edited by Donald Abenheim; 12-29-2005, 05:47 AM.Comment
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The pink-piped visor cap for Hauptsturmfuhrer Riefkogel 3./SS-Panzer Regiment "Totenkopf" - a holder of the RK - is illustrated in Edwards and Pruett: "Field Uniforms of Germany's Panzer Elite", pp. 241-243. Included is a period photo of Riefkogel wearing the visor, taken some time after his award of the RK on 11 July 1943 and before his death from wounds on 30 July 1944.
MikeComment
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Here is a quote from Peter Jenkins who originally found the Riefkogel cap:
"Real colour piped hats for the Waffen SS are extremely rare, I originally found the Riefkogel hat mentioned in an above post in a private museum in Celle, Germany (his home town) in 1982. It resided in my collection until 1989, when I traded it for some rare TK/TV insignias. It was donated by the family, who still live in the area, and came with his cased RK, some collars, and press photos and cuttings. His initials were on 2 discs inside (W R), and it was stitched across the inside top by hand, to give it a crusher look. I paid the handsome price at the time of £2,700 / $5,000 for the grouping. I didn't know it had appeared in a book, but I do understand the grouping was immediately split up, and at least one of the discs disappeared?"
That would have been one helluva grouping to have found.Comment
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