Show Us Your Branch-Piped W-SS Visor

[TonyS]

Bruce - I would be interested to see the rest of the breakdown on the different types if you have it.

I assume there is at least (besides Panzer)
Pioneer
Artillery
Cavalry/Recon
Signals
Concentration camp
Medical
Transport
Legal
Engineer
SD
Gebirgsjaeger

Any I missed?

[Antiquefrog]

Colleague Tony2411 - Have sent this info privately - if other members interested, advise and I will post - Bruce

[sturmbannfuhrer]

here is my gebirsjager crusher curtosy of my trusty HP R707 digi camera

[TonyS]

Looks like one of those special issue invisible piped visors.

that's better - now we can see one photo.

[Bob Coleman]

I have found this thread to be quite interesting. It also reflects my belief that few original SS visor caps have survived and only a few of those are branch piped. I have seen several that I have no doubt as to their period originality. However, the majority posted are in my opinion post war. Some being high end fakes and others not as good. Each owner needs to compare the fabric of their hat with original examples of any 3rd Reich visor cap. Does the fabric have the natural aging patina from 60+ years exposure to the enviroment or does it look fresh and new. Is the backside of the piping the same color as the front or is it more vibrant in the unexposed area as one would expect from a period example. Some, but not all of the fakes, weigh more than a period visor cap. If the cap has reproduction insignia, chances are it is also reproduction. My thoughts for what they are worth.
Bob

[sturmbannfuhrer]

SS Gebirsjager cap: see link for pics

Hi Tony, those helpful chaps at Yahoo give only a smidgeon of bandwidth for free. My pic of the cap is massive is bytes on this site, dropping the size is something I will do later (and all the others) when I've finished my shift, although the r707 software is a nightmare to do it with.

The pic is on the following link, try again, the bandwidth is updated every hour to allow more views. I have a few additional shots of it on there. This cap was being sold on commssion for me by Regimentals, I called it back after a few months as there does appear to be a lot of iffies about in collecting land.

[Antiquefrog]

Colleague Coleman - Thanks for this simple statement. As many of you know, I track listings and probable sales of branch-piped visors described as "authentic" on the major international sites just as a hobby, if you will, without filtering for my personal opinion. I have a great deal of data in this regard. Without bias, I would observe that based on price ALONE, every single sale - without exception - is of suspect material: the average price, EM or officer, is below the the 4K-8K+ range of more likely legitimate white-piped W-SS material which appears regularly. Surely no knowlegable dealer with such a potential treasure in hand would give it up for less than market. I can only conclude that a lot of collectors have spent a lot of money on, I fear, a lot of junk. Private or forum responses invited. In the meanwhile, thanks to all of you who have contributed to this thread - Bruce

[sturmbannfuhrer]

My cap has reappeared on this thread, any comments

[SScollector]

The insignia are fake.

[John Pic]

Just a note on the phenomenon of aging. A friend recently called me, somewhat astonished, he made a discovery. He was told about some old military items stored over the years and went to have a look. He found some American WW 1 uniforms that had never been used and were in absolute mint condition no patina, as Bob describes it, looking as if fresh from the store rack. In conversation further with a collector of Civil war items he learned that even some cloth items of that period survived in pristine shape no age wear etc. We as Third Reich collectors have also seen, on more than one occaision and before the internet too, absolute mint pristine Heer, Luftwaffe, and other branch tunics come from out of the woodworks some with paper tailor tags still attached. Yet when we find and SS item in such condition our hackles raise and we are quick to voice deep suspicion..rightly so due to the money involved. Somethings age for environmental reason, some for the same reason remain unscathed. A restored tunic that sat on an outdoor display table in the Sun every year for five years at the Great Western Gun show in Pamona in the 1970s might show more age than an untouched one that was kept well preserved in a collection since the 1950s. So just an opinion regarding age. I think what is more important would be materials used and proper construction.
Another interesting note, following this thread I started browsing all my photo books and it

is incredible to note that quite a few wore branch piped visor caps, you can see the darker colors clear enough and even pink and gold show up in good B&W pictures.Why do peple feel they were so rare? Another thing to think about, there were more uniforms and caps made than there were soldiers, just as there are today for our Army every Army base has a clothing depot and when you go inside you see tonage literally of clothing supply racks of caps etc. Im sure much of what survived was destroyed in some manner or other but I often wonder just how much was found after the Iron curtain fell in various stages of manufacture and or hanging to be delivered but never made it?

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Vot about the cap

[Bob Coleman]

Colleague Coleman - Thanks for this simple statement. As many of you know, I track listings and probable sales of branch-piped visors described as "authentic" on the major international sites just as a hobby, if you will, without filtering for my personal opinion. I have a great deal of data in this regard. Without bias, I would observe that based on price ALONE, every single sale - without exception - is of suspect material: the average price, EM or officer, is below the the 4K-8K+ range of more likely legitimate white-piped W-SS material which appears regularly. Surely no knowlegable dealer with such a potential treasure in hand would give it up for less than market. I can only conclude that a lot of collectors have spent a lot of money on, I fear, a lot of junk. Private or forum responses invited. In the meanwhile, thanks to all of you who have contributed to this thread - Bruce

Bruce-
You have accurately described the atmosphere surrounding branch piped visor caps. I have been collecting for nearly 50 years. Neither I or any of my other local collecting buddies have ever had the opportunity to purchase an unquestionable branch piped visor from either a veteran or a respectable dealer. Most of you cannot comprehend what it was like buying in the 50's and the 60's. 3rd Reich stuff was easily available and affordable for purchase by an eleven year old on his chore and allowance money. Between 1956 and 1972, when I quit collecting 3rd Reich material, I only vet purchased two gray SS visor caps-one NCO and one officer. Both of these were white piped. I was a very active early advertiser in the newspapers and other media for this stuff. Gentlemen, this was in the days when only a few of us were interested in collecting this material. I went to many shows and saw few gray SS visors for sale during this period(definitely less than ten!). Another advanced hat collector, Jack Hatter, did not have a gray visor until I set him up in 1969 with a dealer friend to buy one he had recently vet purchased.
The vast amount of branch piped gray visor caps cannot be traced back more than ten years. It was at this time that the "found in Eastern Block Countries"fairy tale began. The majority of the hats were sent in to the USA less insignia, which at later date had fake insignia added by the dealers who knowingly knew what they were selling. Some of the noted European dealers who are known to deal in fakes were involved in this trade. Since real visor cap insignia was too valuable, fake insignia was added. Now, you may say, how does Coleman know alll of this? This was the period that I reentered the hobby. After many years away, I remebered what the early fakes and original items looked like. I had no idea what an industry the faking of everything had become. An "old friend" was gracious enough to sell me at least six of these and I picked a few more up from an auction house in Italy that is no longer in business. I learned from the error of my judgement and spent much time noting the construction and material used in these hats. I have kept my self current on the latest generations as they appear. For those of you who want to believe, verify the accurate provenance of your hat. Although some fake branch piped hats appeared in the early 80's, the majority are no more than ten years old. If they have fake insignia, it is likely the whole piece is also fake.
As to the aging of the cloth, John is correct in his assertion that period tunics and hats can surface that appear to be new. Proper storage can account for that fact. However, this by far is the exception over the norm.
In conclusion, gray SS visors are far rarer than black ones. In my opinion, a genuine branch piped NCO visor cap would be worth 8-10 thousand dollars and an officer fifteen thousand and up. Think about my words before you jump in to a reasonably priced branch piped hat. If you already have, find a knowledgable hat collector who will give you an honest opinion on your piece. Hard earned money should purchase original items-not well made fakes.
Bob

[Bob Coleman]

.

[John Pic]

Bob, I am in total agreement with you.But I also feel its important never to close all lines of thinking when assesing items and where they come from. Your experience will never be questioned by me. Especially since all experiences can differentiate. A persons location can also be a factor. Ive seen a couple color piped caps that I thought had a chance over the years. I also saw one sitting amongst the treasures of a highly esteemed dealer authority that was IMO a total rework and fairly obvious. I was told about it prior to my visit and when I actually saw it for myself the moment was another lesson in what people really know as opposed to what is gathered and applied through years of experience and gathering info.We all have learned through the internet that the word "textbook" means little when applied to cloth items. I see men of authority in the hobby with huge collections of original items dotted with some fakes,why ? Simply because perfect expertise cannot be achieved,we can come close but theres so much, because we werent there,that we wont know.

That said I have found some of the same qualities in fakes that you have. If anything I have some experiences with fakes Ive owned at least 5 fake caps to my one real cap.

[Bob Coleman]

Bob, I am in total agreement with you.But I also feel its important never to close all lines of thinking when assesing items and where they come from. Your experience will never be questioned by me. Especially since all experiences can differentiate. A persons location can also be a factor. Ive seen a couple color piped caps that I thought had a chance over the years. I also saw one sitting amongst the treasures of a highly esteemed dealer authority that was IMO a total rework and fairly obvious. I was told about it prior to my visit and when I actually saw it for myself the moment was another lesson in what people really know as opposed to what is gathered and applied through years of experience and gathering info.We all have learned through the internet that the word "textbook" means little when applied to cloth items. I see men of authority in the hobby with huge collections of original items dotted with some fakes,why ? Simply because perfect expertise cannot be achieved,we can come close but theres so much, because we werent there,that we wont know.

That said I have found some of the same qualities in fakes that you have. If anything I have some experiences with fakes Ive owned at least 5 fake caps to my one real cap.

John-
Very valid points
Bob