KM Small Coffee Cup and Soup Bowl

[Loke]

To be honest, I never never heard about this color scheme and I think this is extremely unpractical in daily live.

Marine, it would be very helpful if you could answer the questions asked above. This would much more contribute to this thread than a simple "What you say is not true".

I am much open for any explanation.

Regards
Christian

The administrative philosophy behind different colored stripes on the porcelaine, had from the start most likely to do with a naval desire for order, systematizing and organisation, as well as a practical diversification of the different rank groups. Being a Kriegsmarine Porzellan collector for many years I've never seen any written regulations regarding the codes but there is no doubt in my mind that "Marine" is spot on here with the explanation of the different colors. That being said, a few exceptions occure. A "Teekanne für wahrscheinlich höhere Offiziere" from my collection, has only one red stripe instead of the regular three.

Regards Loke

[Loke]

Am

.

[marine]

[QUOTE=Loke;7196220].[/QUOT

[David Fettes]

Without period written proof this is all just theory.

They did not have these markings for the Heer, Luftwaffe or Waffen SS.


Oh by the way what are blue rings meant to be for then?

[compressore]

As I said, it is a interesting topic.

Still my question:
An line officer is visiting an officers mess with his officers friend (and administration officer).
Does the mess has different cups for both of them ?
A differentiation between private ranks and officers I can imagine...you can just sort the porcelain in the right mess. But between officer ranks themselves I can not see a reason.

I will also post this interesting topic in the German Marine Forum which has a lot of retired and actual German navy officers as members. I am looking forward to see the answer.
I will use the above posted chart.
Regards
Christian

[Loke]

.

[marine]

[QUOTE=Loke;7196280]No, this is not just theory. It's common knowledge amongst collectors of porcelain. Regarding your statement that there are no such markings as colored stripes on Heer, Luftwaffe or Waffen SS porcelaine, it makes it natural to wonder how much such porcelaine you have actually seen. Can't be any large numbers, I presume?

Regards, Loke[/Q

[David Fettes]

Using the chart makes no sense when there is no period proof this is true.

What plates would Fähnrich ranks use?

The only difference between the plain ones and the ones with rings is the coloured rings, thats it. They are not finer, lighter, better quality etc etc, they just have a different coloured ring. They are the same chunky, heavy porcelaine used by the other services.

A captain in the middle of a storm, in the Atlantic is not going to complain his plate does not have the red rings on it and refuse to eat until his plate is found. As I have already said they are totalitarian ware, pure and simple. the rings are decoration.

And just in case you think I am a troll with no idea about 3rd Reich canteen ware, here is some of my collection.

[David Fettes]

Loke,

The item you posted is a Norwegian item specially made, not standard German made totalitarian canteen ware. Comming from Norway you knew that already.

[km-spain]

Thank you, really interesting.

If this is right, I understand that it is not an fixed rule, probably depended of the place and the situation, and that these colors were used in the canteens of the barracks and the large fleet ships in which there was a stricter discipline and probably in the dining rooms were grouped by ranks.

Not have ever seen the color dark-blue and silver for the Beamter, have you seen it?, can you show any?

Thanks again.

[compressore]

Hi,
I got an answer in the German forum with a link to this:

http://www.porzellanfieber.de/Porzel...kor-weiss.html

Distinction:

no color: privates and junior NCOs
green: senior NCOs
red (brown): Officers
That make sense (as stated by myself already above) as this is the normal differentiation between the ranks mess rooms.

Very interesting is the link to the inventory list of the U-874 where this distinction is mentioned.
http://www.porzellanfieber.de/Hinter...Porzellan.html

That make sense as this is the normal differentiation between the ranks mess.
Now lets wait what is said to the black and yellow colors.

Regards
Christian

[David Fettes]

Christian,

The first link shows very early RAD items, this was changed later on.

[David Fettes]

The second link IMO shows some problems which I will address:-

Only eggs were allowed for Oberfeldwebels and Officers? I doubt that.

For 72 men they had only 4 coffee pots. The 0.85 kg pot holds 1 ltr, while the 1.6 kg pot would hold 1.5 ltr. So that makes only 5 ltrs of coffee available for 72 men of which only 2 ltrs would be available for 54 of those men, but wait, according to the list those men didnt have any coffee cups, only the larger cups. Even then if they wanted milk they would have to go get them from the upper ranks.

Also according to that list they were not allowed any tea, only Oberfeldwebel ranks and above, hardly seems fair now does it?

If they wanted sugar......opps only 3 sugar pots available for the whole ship.

Now for the Nachspeisetellers, only 8 available for the whole boat and none for Officers, very odd.

The list also make NO mention of salt and pepper holders, so sorry boys no salt & pepper for you.

The list leaves a lot to be desired and has issues, I hope you can see what I am getting at.



.

[Loke]

Using the chart makes no sense when there is no period proof this is true.

What plates would Fähnrich ranks use?

The only difference between the plain ones and the ones with rings is the coloured rings, thats it. They are not finer, lighter, better quality etc etc, they just have a different coloured ring. They are the same chunky, heavy porcelaine used by the other services.

A captain in the middle of a storm, in the Atlantic is not going to complain his plate does not have the red rings on it and refuse to eat until his plate is found. As I have already said they are totalitarian ware, pure and simple. the rings are decoration.

And just in case you think I am a troll with no idea about 3rd Reich canteen ware, here is some of my collection.

- The chart is 100% correct. Please show period proof if you still believe the stripes are fancy decoration
- A Fähnrich is an officer canditate. Most likely, If he sat down for supper in the officers mess amongst the officers, the plates in this place would have the red stripes. If he sat down amongst in the Bootsmänner mess, green stripes.

-"Striped" porcelaine do normally hold a higher quality than porcelain for enlisted men. It's generally hinner, and has a plainer surface. And small production "bumps", "black dots" and other smaller mistakes is not to be found, but is quite common on porcelain for enlisted men.

- About your imaginary atlantic Captain, Kriegsmarine personell where often located in larger groups than the men on your smaller imaginary vessel, and a dividing of the dining messes where natural according to ranks. The stripes served a purpose here, they were indeed no "decoration"

- Trolls exist both in norse mythology and at the WAF, but I was not aware that some of them collect Wehrmacht porcelain

Regards, Loke

[David Fettes]

First you claimed I didnt know what I was talking about and assumed I had never held any period porcelain, I quote "it makes it natural to wonder how much such porcelaine you have actually seen. Can't be any large numbers, I presume?".
I have proved you wrong on that score with a photograph of some of my collection.

As for providing proof that the rings do NOT show rank, if the period documents do not exsist that will be impossible. It is up to you to prove that it does mean the ranks by showing the period documentation, not the other way round.
If you can provide the documentation then I will accept your findings and I will be happy that I have learned something new for the week.

HOWEVER at no point have I been rude to you and therefore I expect the same respect back. The fact that you have not provided that respect is not what this forum is all about.
This is meant to be a serious discussion yet you resort to throwing mud. Not cool.




.



.