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**RonR** · 02-20-2012, 09:45 AM

Norm,

You are the MAN!

Best regards,

**Kondor** · 02-20-2012, 10:49 AM

Thanks Norm! I'll have another one for you when I get home tonight!

**John R.** · 02-20-2012, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by RonR View Post

Anti-Aircraft

If this had been correct, this sailor's left sleeve insignia would have been great to see:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=487711

**Norm F** · 02-20-2012, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by John Robinson View Post

If this had been correct, this sailor's left sleeve insignia would have been great to see:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=487711

Hi John,

Since Karl Jörß was a Bootsmannsmaat and Flakleiter on the transport ship "Dora", my best guess would be he had the standard fouled anchor rank patch plus a specialty patch for Geschützführer der leichten Flakartillerie. The specialty patch also depends on the size and armament of the "Dora"; Small = one chevron, Medium = two chevrons, Heavy = three chevrons.

Best regards,
---Norm

Attached Files

Maatandspecialty.jpg (155.0 KB, 480 views)

**Kondor** · 02-20-2012, 07:56 PM

Again Norm, thanks for the help on the stueckmeister insignia. Is it time to stump Norm???? Here is another that I have not been able to run to ground and am hoping that you can help!!! Nice Senior NCO straps with pins on the metal insignia, but it is also secured with thread! But what is it

Are these the warrant officers who would be working in R& D on the big guns

Attached Files

Artillery Specialist Spiess Straps.jpg (173.3 KB, 483 views)

**Norm F** · 02-20-2012, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by Kondor View Post

Again Norm, thanks for the help on the stueckmeister insignia. Is it time to stump Norm???? Here is another that I have not been able to run to ground and am hoping that you can help!!! Nice Senior NCO straps with pins on the metal insignia, but it is also secured with thread! But what is it

Are these the warrant officers who would be working in R& D on the big guns

Hey, it's not about stumping me, it's about stumping Angolia/Schlicht's "Die Kriegsmarine Uniforms and Traditions" published by Roger Bender in 1991.

Those shoulder straps with two pips below and one above are for the most senior NCO rank of Stabsoberfeldwebel, a rank that was introduced on February 16, 1939 and to which one could be promoted after three years as an Oberfeldwebel (which had one below and one above). The insignia of the canon crossing an anchor is for the career group "Armorer for artillery" (Waffenwartlaufbahn für Artilleriewaffen). The insignia alone designates a Waffenwart and the additional chevron makes him an Oberwaffenwart. From page 120 of volume 1: "Armorers -- Waffenwarte and Oberwaffenwarte -- were not separated by ranks. They wore rank insignia in accordance with their grading. The Oberwaffenwart was recognized by a small chevron of gold-colored metal affixed below the career insigne."

Presumably in charge of maintaining and repairing the artillery. Maybe someone else can elaborate on the finer points differentiating an Artificer from an Armorer?

Best regards,
---Norm

P.S. Those are odd-looking buttons, aren't they? I don't recall seeing ones like that with the smooth borders -- and they don't match each other.

**Kondor** · 02-20-2012, 10:50 PM

Thanks again Norm, I really wasn't trying to stump you, just figure out what these were. You and John seems to be the most knowledgeable on insignia

I suspected with the three pips, this boy would have been up there close to the big guns either accepting them or repairing them. Thanks again for your help

Regarding the buttons, I take what I can get!! These came with the boards, brass and only have a soldered shank for sewing to the uniform, so no maker mark.

**John R.** · 02-21-2012, 10:30 AM

OK, I checked with a German friend, former Bundesmarine. He said the following:

"Now, with a little delay, the answer to the Oberstückmeister - I had to do a little reading about that.

A Oberstückmeister is a Petty Officer's rank in the artillery branch. He serves as "connection" between the 1st Artillery Officer and the Petty Officers in charge of an individual heavy artillery gun (Geschützführer). The (Ober-)Stückmeister is in charge of more then one gun of the main artillery or Flak caliber of a ship.

The Stückmeister supervises:

1. the cleaning and maintenance of guns,
2. the taking of ammunition,
3. the exercising and drill of the personnel assigned to the guns under his command.

He is further in charge of the coordination in regard of the various targets to tackle between the individual guns during firing exercises. He has also to complete administrative work (paperwork), related to the artillery on board and in particular the guns under his command."

Hope this helps,

John

**John R.** · 02-21-2012, 10:44 AM

Let me try to explain how ships' guns work from a manning point of view.

Here is the manning of an 8 inch (heavy cruiser) turret, late WWII design but would have application to most ships that were designed and built in the 1930s. Some reduction in manning occurred as design improved during the war to automate some functions in the main guns. For secondary guns, not much change at all.

Numerous secondary and anti-aircraft batteries covered the rest of the ship.

Turret Officer

Turret Captain Right Turret Control
Turret Captain Left Turret Control

Talker: JE (Computer To Sight Setter)
Computer Talker: JW (Radar Range)
Radar Talker: JW (Local Computer) Computer
Computer Operator Computer

Radar Operator Left Radar

Radar Operator Right Radar
Electrician Roving

Gun Captain*

Right Gun Control Panel

Gun Captain*
Center Gun Control Panel

Gun Captain*
Left Gun Control Panel

Gun Captain's Assistant** Roving

Trainer

Train Control Handwheel

Right Sight Station

Sight Setter
Sight Setting Indicator

Pointer
Elevating Control Handwheel
Left Sight Station

Checker Left Sight (Drill Fire Only)
Outer Ring Operator Outer Ring Control Handwheel

Upper Projectile Flat

Inner Ring Operator*** Inner Ring Control Handwheel

Projectile Man •
Right Steady Arm Mechanism
Projectile Man •
Center Steady Arm Mechanism
Projectile Man •
Left Steady Arm Mechanism

Parbuckler •
Right Gypsy Head
Parbuckler •
Center Gypsy Head
Parbuckler •
Left Gypsy Head

Outer Ring Operator Outer Ring Control Handwheel

Lower Projectile Flat

Inner Ring Operator Inner Ring Control Handwheel
Projectile Man Right Steady Arm Mechanism
Projectile Man Center Steady Arm Mechanism
Projectile Man Left Steady Arm Mechanism
Parbuckler Right Gypsy Head
Parbuckler Center Gypsy Head
Parbuckler Left Gypsy Head
Electrician Roving
Petty Officer In Charge Hoist Communications

Powder Handling Room

First Powderman, Right
Right Powder Hoist

Second Powderman, Right Right Powder Hoist
Third Powderman. Right Magazine Scuttle

First Powderman, Center
Center Powder Hoist
Second Powderman. Center Center Powder Hoist
Third Powderman, Center Magazine Scuttle

First Powderman. Left
Left Powder Hoist
Second Powderman, Left Left Powder Hoist
Third Powderman. Left Magazine Scuttle

**Norm F** · 02-21-2012, 10:56 AM

Hi John,

If I count correctly from that incredible list, that's 51 people to coordinate the action of on 3-cannon turret?! Or were subsets of those activities carried out by a single individual?

Best regards,
---Norm

**John R.** · 02-21-2012, 11:01 AM

This is a late war design Norm, many more were requried in early war ships.

**John R.** · 02-21-2012, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

Hi John,

If I count correctly from that incredible list, that's 51 people to coordinate the action of on 3-cannon turret?! Or were subsets of those activities carried out by a single individual?

(Maybe we should split this off into a separate thread?)

Best regards,
---Norm

No, the gun was fully manned. Nobody doubled up unless you were very short handed.

John

**Kondor** · 02-21-2012, 05:05 PM

John, Norm, you guys are amazing!!! Thank you very much for a great explanation and thank your friend from the German Navy as well!!

**Norm F** · 02-21-2012, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by John Robinson View Post

The Stückmeister supervises:

1. the cleaning and maintenance of guns,
2. the taking of ammunition,
3. the exercising and drill of the personnel assigned to the guns under his command.

He is further in charge of the coordination in regard of the various targets to tackle between the individual guns during firing exercises. He has also to complete administrative work (paperwork), related to the artillery on board and in particular the guns under his command."

Hope this helps,

John

Hi John,

So from your amazing descriptions of the complex teams required for the ship's artillery, it's clear to see that the Stückmeister (Artificer) career was a highly responsible position.

And I guess the Waffenwart/Oberwaffenwart (Armorer) career perhaps was more involved in the actual mechanical repair of the equipment?

Best regards,
---Norm

**John R.** · 02-21-2012, 08:52 PM

Take a look at this film and you will get the idea. Just look at all the moving parts and think how easy it would be to lose a hand, crush a limb, have a finger or two amputated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OmOQ...eature=related

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