My new DAK helmets

[NickG]

Thank you for the reply, however without verifying the vets connection it's nothing more than scenery.

You keep saying that all of the SS depots in that region are well documented. Please post an official document, article, book page or whatever proving s connection between Prague, and the supposed SS Depot, so that it can be verified independently.

If not again, it's smoke and mirrors.

My posts are very simple and clear I am asking for you to prove what your saying without the use of random could be anywhere photos, or those of anything other than what is breing requested.

Documents, publications, orders, television documentry clips.....something that goes beyond your statements that can be checked independently. The 3rd Reich documented virtually everything...surely it should be too difficult to post the pages of your sources. You quote them with such gusto as to even use the German names for validation.

Time to put up.

That's fair and its also fair to prove the "war time" theory as opposed to prove the "post war" refurbishment theory...It will take time. I have made some contacts already. Just wish Karl could chime in (indirectly via a mediator if necessary)

The way I see it thus far summerized;

What we having going FOR the war time (SS) argument is:
-100% war time identified parts from Sudetenland/ Protektorat and General Gouvernement (that's not a coincidence...CZ + Poland...)
Who was the boss there if you may ask?
- RAL paint DunkelGelb
- Protektorat was SS dominated and controlled territory, aka "Heidrich's Prague"
- Polizei vet Sud front kit statement
- surviving other SS kit to include sudfront Sahariana kit ALL coming from there
- the need for such colored helmets with (inconclusive) photographic proof SS division deployed in Div strength to Greece.
- the facilities and location (depots and SS industry workshops etc)
- the timing: around that time the helmets showed up on the market also SS trop boots, Saharianas SS M41 fieldcaps etc..became available!
- the1946 stamp: kills Egypt made contract! and too early for post war refurb! (stamped months after the war ended like Italian camo parkas)

You said all main/major cities had Wehrmacht (armed forces supply) depots, so big deal!! Weak argument...
OK, but what is the difference: not near SS industry (work shops etc..., not Hauptlagers...(Zentral lager) , but yes unit level or even Division/Corps level, not branch/theatre level (with direct SS control, not Heeres Kommando)!
btw the Litzmannstadt (Lotz) Ghetto manufacturing and the Warsaw SS Bekleidungs lager were tied together (inter-twined) direct supply, with even forced labor working at these distribution depots! Not something you would see with LW and Heer/Army, different channels, no ties to THEIR OWN industry...with their own (forced) labor pool nothing like the SS "Ost Industrie GmbH" (=East Industry Inc) involved in armaments industry, and gear (like the Ravensbruck bekleidungswerke for SS uniforms). The list just goes on and on...
The SS had its own "empire" so to speak with sources outside of the army's channels (and outside of army specifications even) and a LOT more involved into rebuilding, recycling, refurbishing. Chris already touched on that. Hence my SS direction, (as opposed to LW tropical etc...)

and no other place had gear in those quantities coming out of their locations as much as Czechoslovakia did...So much so that they even patterned Czech flying gear (channel pants/jacket) after German LW types (close clones) when those German supplies eventually were used up, and that took time!
Did the liberated Paris supply depot furnish liberated kit to any of its (French) armed forces? Any other country examples?
CZ was unique for some reason....just massive supplies in unissued condition.(big industrial region out of reach of UK/US bombing campaign)

What we have going AGAINST the war time argument:
- "does not look German" (texture and finish)
- "identified as post war export made" (but cancelled...)
- the establishment said "not a chance"

Am I missing something in the "Against" list?
More to follow. You already stated it can take time but NOBODY really delved into this matter properly...(I feel...just purists opinions,
in other words the text book argument or lack there of...). Its worth investigating and I might be connecting the wrong dots after all!

[90th Light]

900 posts and counting....

Race you for number 1000

Chris

[NickG]

Please see my previous post. The quoted information is what I am asking for the direct source.

Thank you.

Here's a source for SS bekleidungs lager in Prague:
It talks of 4 installations but does not call it a "Hauptlager"...
but the fact that it has 4 "lageren", that makes it a "Hauptlager". (main depot)

http://www.urocnice.eu/clanky/cvicis...u-b-und-m.html

More to follow! It will take time!

Another reason why so much gear was available in Prague area (Bohmen und Mahren) was because the Waffen SS did not want to rely on the Heer (Army) lazaret system any longer... and the hard fighting on the Eastern Front lead to the need for setting up independent SS troop hospitals. This facilitated easier care and a swifter more efficient return to SS units for wounded men if they remained in the SS channels of care and services.

The "Protectorate" was particularly convenient and attractive for that purpose, as it was centrally located and far enough from the front, but not too far, as well as it being too far for Allied air bases to reach the Prague region (unlike Germany...out of range) and finally
attacks by the resistance movement was very minimal in the Protektorate (until the final uprising in 1945 of course).

This also could be a main reason for larger amount of replacement clothing and gear inventories being available in that region, a rest and recuperation hub for Waffen SS troops who needed to be re-outfitted prior to returning to their unit.
Therefor more stores were found there, than in other areas or major cities creating an abundant amount of left overs post May 1945.

The 2 biggest medical care locations;
- SS-Hauptlazarett, Prag
- SS-Lazarett Gaya, Mähren



See Ad 6)
SS-Bekleidungslager, Prag (einschl.4 lageren)

[NickG]

Please post your direct sources for the above.

If either you or NickG would also post the following:

Waffen-SS Vet in question who had recalled the SS depot in Prague, please post his name, and as much info on him as possible so that we might do a quick verification of his service time/ branch of service. It would seem he is the primary source for the SS depot in Prague theory.

If he is not, then please see item #1 and post your direct source for this information.

Thank you.

You aksed so I am posting a picture (sorry Doug!!!) The Soldier is here X (already stated before), Polizei Division Greece 1944,
came through Prague for Tropical kit issuance...
and 2nd image post war Czech use of same left over equipment (from Prague area...where the helmets originate) taken 12 months apart....
Is there a connection?

[Tim O'Keefe]

Directly from the Album of a WSS Polizei Division member Greece Summer 44 !
He said they were issued the complete tropical outfit including a ...brand new sand helmet !
Not only repainted on the outside but completely sand colour !
That was in a logistic center in the north of Prag, a city called Mlada Boleslav now .
When he came back from Greece and went to the Ostfront , he gave back the whole tropical outfit he had and received a russian front outfit again .
And left his sand colour helmet in Mlada Boleslav !
Some of the pictures in his Album were given to " Der Freiwillige" and never came back...some were used for the book on the uniform of the WSS issued
in the 80's .
Nick

"Many tropical helmets came from the same area ...
Mostly sand ones , LW or shield traces ( WSS?WH or KM ? ) some
green ones .
If it was directly from this logistic depot ? i don't know but it could be the case ...
Nick "

This is from Nick's post #92 & 100 (the other Nick) going into detail on the tropical depot near Prague. For years tropical collectors have known of this find. Hundreds of tropenhelms without insignia have been found in this area post war. Many have had LW insignia both original & fake attached post war in the belief that the sunhelmets were for the LW but looks more & more like they were for the ss as well. The good thing is no-one is going to pay any more for a tropenhelm without any insignia that may (or not) have been used by the ss, so no real cash incentive there. Unless there is actual provenance.

Some of the the locals knew of the depot and used the web gear and sunhelmets while working in the area as well.

Again i am reminded of the "beehive" find of tropical items found post war. This is a great thread with lots of incredible information coming to light. Just maybe not the answer's some of you are looking for yet....keep digging someone knows for sure the origin of these helmets. Karl may be the one or someone he dealt with in CZ perhaps ?

[NickG]

Since you asked Mr.Hollywood; (some more smoking mirrors )

Lets connect some more dots or rather, retrace the unit movement of this SS Polizei veteran,
to verify the accuracy of the vet's statement (receiving such Tropen Ausrustung in Prague...etc):



By December 1943 the ENTIRE SS Polizei division (minus 1 detached kampfgruppe which remained in Russia) was posted to Salonika, Greece to start occupation security duty and anti partisan operations, which lasted 8 months and the Division left the Sudfront theatre for Bucharest Ost front in August of 1944. (turning in their tropical kit back in Prague I assume... reverse route)

See red route! Map from the 4th Division History "Die Guten Glaubens Waren"(1977)
From Heeresgruppe Nord (Northern sector of the Eastern front) to Prague area, (depot location), through the Balkans (also security duty there),
to Salonika and Larissa, Greece. Troop movement Balkans commenced late 1943 and the ENTIRE Division stayed in the theatre
(Greece occupation and partisan fighting) through the summer of 1944.(mainly Northern-Central Greece)

Total Division strength: 16,000. Btw that is a lot of stahlhelmen to be painted tan "in the field", but who knows?
Could all have been prepped at a Prague work shop too I guess in anticipation of the move!!
(Show me a picture of large SS Polizei Division formations NOT wearing tan colored helmets, while in Greece)

Incidentally the tropical SS funeral pictures (with a sea of uniformly painted tan helmets) was the funeral of SS-Brigadefuhrer H.E.Vahl.
He arrived to assume command of the Polizei Division on 13 July 1944, but was killed in a motoring accident in Greece on 22 July 1944.

but again all of this could all be just one HUGE coincidence of course..
(and the vet recount is inaccurate!) and the helmets could have been standard overpaints...I really don't know... I was not there....
but if so, certainly overpaints done OUTSIDE of the theatre, because the vet got his sahariana kit WITH a tan stahlhelm in Prague he claims.

Certainly makes me wonder! So I leave the possibilities wide open!
I am just throwing it out there! People can decide on their own and draw their own conclusions!

I doubt that a dealer/wholesaler looked into any of this, especially during a time when there was no internet (late 1980's)
when the Egypt export fable was born, which tainted these helmets from the day they came out of storage untouched,
(other than a 1946 CZ post war property stamp on some... and tagged as CZ surplus goods for disposal and identified and sold as such...)

[Kangaroo]

Doug,

the post war case so far has 3 things;

1/ Some mystery dealer ran around the Max in the mid-80's, saying these were CZ for a cancelled Egyptian export contract. Thus everyone accepted that and recited "Post-war" ever since.

2/ Vague black and white images of possible CZ use in the period immediately after WW2

3/ There is one and I repeat "one" helmet with a post war CZ roundel over-painted with a shade of sand/ tan 'brown. No one can confirm if the roundel on this one helmet is painted, a stencil or a decal ? Let alone if it is original

Now please add to this list if I have missed anything. However if this is all you have got. Then it is hardly a case to hang your hat on, rejoice and sing hallelujah.

Now I know every one is saying that they do not have "the feel" or "the look" or the Emperor's blessing. However, the problem with feelings and looks is that they are purely subjective based on perception. The problem with Emperor's is sometimes they are not even wearing clothes.

However, (i) it is a fact that these helmets are a hoard found in the CZ.

(ii) it is a fact there was an SS depot for issuing tropical clothing in that part of the CZ during WW2

(iii) it is a fact that other hoards of 101% original German uniforms & equipment have also been found in that part of the CZ.

These are facts that can be proved and you could take to court.

So please do not ask me to simply brush objective facts which have now come to light under the carpet to try and pretend there might not be a connection or that they even exist.

What I am asking with option 3/ is there any more evidence that might support or prove the connection between these sand/ tan/ brown helmets, and the facts of an SS depot & other hoards of original items found ?

And that is not an unreasonable avenue of investigation regardless of who might disagree with it. If they think it is so wrong then go find the evidence to counter those 3 facts (i) to (iii) that do exist i.e. action is louder than words,

Also with respect,

Chris

Hi,

the Czechoslovak circular flag is made by airbrush with stencil - white circle with blue and red cut outs sprayed over white color. It is genuine. Are you able to make a fake emblem under existing layer of another paint?
This emblem was found under the pea green layer by chance.
To find another specimen is like looking for a needle in a haystack.


Another thing is why some of tan helmets are found as reissues with black overpaint and new Czechoslovak made liners and rivets for CD/firemen purposes and some remained in untouched condition when "they were stored at SS/DAK depot"?

Radovan

[francis006]

That's fair and its also fair to prove the "war time" theory as opposed to prove the "post war" refurbishment theory...
I agree

The way I see it thus far summerized;

What we having going FOR the war time (SS) argument is:
-100% war time identified parts from Sudetenland/ Protektorat and General Gouvernement (that's not a coincidence...CZ + Poland...)
Not realy as also some split rivets found are unmarked , so possibly from anywhere , but I think they are Czech stocks parts
- RAL paint DunkelGelb . May be but as I'm also military modeller , panzers in peculiar, I pushed a little bit farther and found , not talking about possible variations from one factory/depot to another , there were at least 4 different tan hues of RAL 7028 , from beige to green !! , depending the time frame .
would explain the earlier tans and the very late dated 45 pea green pzfausts I have

1) Dark yellow RAL 7028 I (lighter beige-gray, registration 02.18.1943 - 03.04.1943;... See HM 1943 S. 113 No. 181 Paragraph 1, Section II) => by RAL card and, inter alia, detectable on my 44er Fallikiste


2) "Dark yellow to model" (Tan II) as a dark yellow RAL 7028 (intense mustard-yellow-gray, registration from 03.04.1943;.. See HM 1943 No. 322) => urgently sought by RAL card detectable (original parts)


3) Dark yellow RAL 7028 Edition 1943 (ocher-yellow-gray) =>
RAL card missing before - however many equipment and Equipment detectable


4) Dark yellow RAL 7028 Edition 1944 (dark green-yellow-gray, use might 10/1944 - end of the war. Cf. HM 1945 + color card) => detectable by RAL card and original artefacts

Then the full reissues but also the partialy post war reissues , then also the one with the emblem , could be all with war time paints (even mixed)

- Protektorat was SS dominated and controlled territory, aka "Heidrich's Prague"some are better than me to answer
- Polizei vet Sud front kit statement they indeed wore tan helmets and equipments . Now for vet memories , I heard so much impossible things from a few !!!
- surviving other SS kit to include sudfront Sahariana kit ALL coming from there
true as I also heard the different storage places found were full of SS stocks but ALSO with other branches stuff
- the need for such colored helmets with (inconclusive) photographic proof SS division deployed in Div strength to Greece. Inconclusive as you said even if possible but like every place in the South , Italie , French Mediterranean etc ...
- the facilities and location (depots and SS industry workshops etc) Indeed but IMHO and for others helmet collectors, not a war time work so far for one type if it's only a depot reissue . If factory then not logical to have no factory stamps ,no texture from the same factory ,same paint for different makers etc...
- the timing: around that time the helmets showed up on the market also SS trop boots, Saharianas SS M41 fieldcaps etc..became available!yes as I said , like other stuff , BTW still no news from the odd cut outs I've seen !!!
- the1946 stamp: kills Egypt made contract! and too early for post war refurb! (stamped months after the war ended like Italian camo parkas)Yes.. and No , as the other export options even if I don't care what has been said for years . At least I could agree they would not have been made for export FIRST . Now refurb from 46 , I don't see any problem

What we have going AGAINST the war time argument:
- "does not look German" (texture and finish) Indeed , that doesn't stick a lot to this very late time frame work as said
- "identified as post war export made" (but cancelled...)I already gave my opinion
- the establishment said "not a chance" somewhere I don't care about establishment , just listen to arguments from all camps but I make my own opinion , why I stay open

Am I missing something in the "Against" list?

-Yes indeed , IMHO you forget an important point once again , a photo of a post war reissue helmet with the emblem UNDER the paint posted by Radovan . A helmet , as it has been missed by some , with an air brush painted emblem so doubtfull made on the barricades as he said .
Even after you said :"it's an original one ", you dismissed this one because of the paint , different than the "stripped" ones with the ONLY good RAL for you now , something far to be sure regarding the different RAL7028 produced

- just the simple option about possible unfinished shells post war painted has not been realy taken into consideration (Mr Hollywood also talk about this) . If possible , it could explain a lot of things about the "non german" manufacturing process and why some are over painted from existing used stocks . another interesting one : "Are some black painted civil helmets are like this ?" .

I think it could be more complet like this and with adding my thoughts so far

[Kangaroo]

NickG:

Please, note that if the helmet has 1946 dated chinstrap it could be attached on helmet later!
The chinstrap perhaps become Czechoslovak army property in 1946 but can be attached to helmet later.

[90th Light]

Hi,

the Czechoslovak circular flag is made by airbrush with stencil - white circle with blue and red cut outs sprayed over white color. It is genuine. Are you able to make a fake emblem under existing layer of another paint?
This emblem was found under the pea green layer by chance.
To find another specimen is like looking for a needle in a haystack.


Another thing is why some of tan helmets are found as reissues with black overpaint and new Czechoslovak made liners and rivets for CD/firemen purposes and some remained in untouched condition when "they were stored at SS/DAK depot"?

Radovan

We could fake that CZ helmet with roundel out here in NZ so fast it would not be funny. But do not take my word for it, have a look for yourself at what "Weta Workshops" and the museum boys can do.

101% fake tanks made as 1/1 scale plastic kitsets from the ground up. Fully computerized and able to do everything a real one can. In fact 3 guesses for the movies planned. Even the rust on them is fake

And you think that helmet with CZ roundel and sand/ tan/ brown over paint would be hard to do, think again. These guys make the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit movies,

Chris

[francis006]

We could fake that CZ helmet with roundel out here in NZ so fast it would not be funny. But do not take my word for it, have a look for yourself at what "Weta Workshops" and the museum boys can do.

101% fake tanks made as 1/1 scale plastic kitsets from the ground up. Fully computerized and able to do everything a real one can. In fact 3 guesses for the movies planned. Even the rust on them is fake

And you think that helmet with CZ roundel and sand/ tan/ brown over paint would be hard to do, think again. These guys make the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit movies,

Chris

[90th Light]

For you Francis,

seeing as you are a model maker, know your paints and appreciate such things.

These are all 1/1 scale kit-sets made as fakes of the real thing

Top image, "new Tiger 1 on its way to the front". Again fully computerised and yes all the guns do fire (same on the other tank models)

Bottom image, "crash of the Red Baron".

The way they got the Australian soldiers at the Red Baron crash looking so real is that "Weta Workshops" molded a real person for each position. Each figure is a known name who was there and what they were doing. Around the walls of the museum are the real artifacts from the real plane being depicted in the model.

You can see more images at the start of this thread; http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=Red+Baron

My apology to those reading this for the digression but I want to show how easy a German helmet with CZ roundel and sand/ tan/ brown over paint is to reproduce or even invent,

Chris

[Kangaroo]

OK,

under heavy fire of evidence tank and airplane photos I give up - not only the emblem is fake, but the M42 shell as well as the liner and complete paint.
All scratches on helmet made my dog.

Radovan

[francis006]

For you Francis,

seeing as you are a model maker, know your paints and appreciate such things.

These are all 1/1 scale kit-sets made as fakes of the real thing

Top image, "new Tiger 1 on its way to the front". Again fully computerised and yes all the guns do fire (same on the other tank models)

Bottom image, "crash of the Red Baron".

The way they got the Australian soldiers at the Red Baron crash looking so real is that "Weta Workshops"molded a real person for each position. Each figure is a known name who was there and what they were doing. Around the walls of the museum are the real artifacts from the real plane being depicted in the model.

My apology to those reading this for the digression but I want to show how easy a German helmet with CZ roundel and sand/ tan/ brown over paint is to reproduce or even invent,

Chris

Chris , I agree there are good artist everywhere , as a helmet collector too I'm used to see a lot for years ...but considering Radovan's helmet and how this emblem has been found , he said :

"M42 probably CKL 64, glossy pea green over German dark green paint except the shell dome.
One of previous owners find out that there is "something" under pea green paint and discovered the flag. Reminders of pea green paint are still pretty here over the flag emblem.

I purchased this helmet here from Ivan (langemarck)."

-that he knows enough Czech post war helmets with this color :

"These helmets can be mostly find in black repaint over this layer pea green paint."

like those I remember in the 90's

So IMHO it's a helmet that wasn't made to fool people first , all was repainted and with a "strange" color for a German M42..
that the previous owner doesn't mind to have an emblem under because he discovered it later ..
and last that I think I know enough helmets that I can't even say I see a red flag so far , not only with the wear but texture , construction etc...so I wouldn't put this helmet in the same basket as the pieces you showed .

if you know helmets , you would know a fake like is not as easy as it seems , they are very close but only close IMHO , like a lot of fakes ...thanks god . The only options then are either a war time helmet , I don't think so or a good one but post war painted , my opinion .

Even if you think it's bad after this , then Ivan or the other guys before are fakers , you don't trust Radovan story and also don't trust my humble skill ,so nothing to add .. just sadly I but also (sorry for the other missing friends ) Doug , Frank , Ron ,Terry ,Willi , Mathieu , Ken , John etc.....have a fake camos collection as our helmets can all be reproductions , no way to prove the contrary . We all have to stop collecting

[foamspoon]

This thread reminds me of the good old *** threads...

(Edit: M-C-F was so good WAF deletes the letters like an obscene phrase! )