Announcement

**90th Light** · 01-02-2015, 04:55 PM

When one takes a step back to get an overview. There are 3 main areas of investigation;

1/ How much evidence exists to support the Post war claim. Lets sum it up and can we add anything more of value ?

2/ How much evidence exists to support the War time claim. Lets sum it up and can we add anything more of value ?

3/ Is there any evidence to support a connection between where this hoard of helmets were found, the SS depot and the other hoards of German WW2 uniform items found in the CZ ?

This is where we should be focusing our energies. A lot of the recent postings are superfluous to the task at hand and in some cases just hot air linking out,

Chris

**bubble** · 01-02-2015, 05:04 PM

For example, in these two pdf are also some more photos RG with helmets:

http://www.abscr.cz/data/pdf/sbornik...2011/kap03.pdf
is.muni.cz/th/145451/ff_b/Cinnost_prazskeho_pluku_RG.pdf

RG members came from different cities of the Czech/BuM (Praha, Plzen, Ceske Budejovice,. and many others) who were in the May 45 sent on the border - the former Sudetenland. So these RG they had a variety of outfits, whichever where they came from. For example RG in Cheb/Eger were from three different cities and each unit RG had a different outfit + helmets.

RG existed only 2-3 months - from May 45 to July 45. Last RG units were disbanded in August 1945 ..

**NickG** · 01-02-2015, 06:05 PM

Excellent images Bubble. It show that RG troops used whatever they could get their hands on from depots and the amount of Italian helmets in use tells me that it is unlikely that these are Luftschutz refurbs pressed into RG service.... (as Kangaroo claimed). Just bone stock Italian lids, post armistice German captured inventories transferred to Czechoslavakia post September 1943....

They look like the standard Italian color here...(not light) and that theory of a possible linkage is dead, thanks to Dennis' contribution with his Bubba test!
The group photo shows a mix of Italian and German helmets in use by RG forces in 1945-46. The color sure looks lighter BUT it is inconclusive like Doug pointed out in B&W images as lighting, glare, over- exposure can change things!...Who knows?

What it does prove is that huge stocks of German (and Italian beute) helmets were in use in 1945-46 (and no doubt re-issued "as is" straight off the shelf,
not refurbed in such a short time span...merely adding a star stencil to the front).

Interesting but does it add anything concrete to our quest for answers? (btw that is not a Hitler salute, probably some kind of swearing in ceremony with clenched fists....(between May and August 1945)

Attached Files

**DougB** · 01-02-2015, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by kevinpre45 View Post

If you were running a poll taken only amongst self described "helmet collectors" the poll would be very different.
Doog
Correct me If Im wrong. I would assume(once again correct me please!?) that the people that took the poll ie The Poll Pollers were helmet collectors? Im confused. Do people look at helmet forums that don't "collect" "helmets"! How would we rate a "true" "helmet collector" number of helmets? years collecting? money spent?Books read? I have a grand idea! Lets have a POLL!
Kevin

I'd say knowledge. You missed my point clearly.

In any case I'm done with the poll Bs.

**DougB** · 01-02-2015, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

When one takes a step back to get an overview. There are 3 main areas of investigation;

1/ How much evidence exists to support the Post war claim. Lets sum it up and can we add anything more of value ?

2/ How much evidence exists to support the War time claim. Lets sum it up and can we add anything more of value ?

3/ Is there any evidence to support a connection between where this hoard of helmets were found, the SS depot and the other hoards of German WW2 uniform items found in the CZ ?

This is where we should be focusing our energies. A lot of the recent postings are superfluous to the task at hand and in some cases just hot air linking out,

Chris

No Chris your back to creating a mystery and muddying the waters again.

These have been considered postwar. Prove they are wartime. Period.

Drop the entire SS train of thought. They're wartime or they are not.

These do not conform to period wartime German refurbs. Ergo the burden of proof is on you to prove why they are wartime. Then and only then can you even think to discuss SS...

Regarding built on spec, Nick why not. It's my theory. Prove me wrong.....

**NickG** · 01-02-2015, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by DougB View Post

Regarding built on spec, Nick why not. It's my theory. Prove me wrong.....

If built on a certain "spec" (meaning a certain color and texture or lack there of, etc...) that is a customer requirement, but we don't have a clear customer

Who dictated the spec in circa 1946 (or 1948)? They certainly don't fit the Argentinian spec that I touched on...
IMO "Reichs Fuhrer SS" and "Polizei Division" could be customers (in order to meet a certain spec, meaning meeting a theatre requirement for Divisional size volume requirement, for full force deployment with Sahariana kit, so tan color), but that goes against the grain, against the norm... Its grau or nothing + field overpaint...add wood chips, add saw dust, add cement, add zimmirit, I get it, but is that really needed for occupation duty?
I know its UFO territory.... this theory...That is why I am so intrigued! but Sahariana kit and tan helmets in abundance in CZ is a big leap of faith for that to be a connection...or is it ? Anyway I remain open minded....(especially since a vet of that division did not remember having to paint his helmet tan while arriving in theatre...received from a Depot in "sandfarbe" with his other "Tropen Ausrustung") prior to deployment to Sudfront from CZ...Who knows? Again these were not reconditioned inside German...but the question is when? before May of after May '45 ? With the 1946 chin strap date surfacing it is a very narrow time frame...Suez is out the door, (50's) and Israel did not exist yet...

What we do know is that many got a second life in Emergency service use...
So painted tan in 1946-48? to be repainted black shortly thereafter? (here being stripped) That's double work!

and that "they just do not look German", screaming post war...well that's true...however they are as smooth as a double decal Apple green pre war (parade) helmet. Its better to state: :" they just don't look combat German" so that could be a local Czech thing too...
made like this because that is how combat Czech helmets look (also lack texture!!!). Everything is explainable. They don't look "Factory German produced" with a war time battle finish...Czech work shop made would be an acceptable explanation for why they look like this,
so the question becomes : war time (1944-45) Czech work shop reconditioned? or 1946-1949 Czech shop reconditioned?
Maybe they needed these fast and texture was not an issue (for Greek occupation duty) and accepted the Czech way of making (painting) helmets ?
Who knows?

Attached Files

20141223_115841(2).jpg (99.8 KB, 186 views)

**foamspoon** · 01-02-2015, 06:36 PM

When I first started collecting in the late 90’s these helmets were every where. Even when being offered by people that had the most to gain from these being original, dealers, they were being offered as post war creations at almost the cost of parts.

I have handled a bunch and to me they scream post war. Like Doug has said they do not conform to any wartime helmet I have seen.

I think the burden of proof is strongly on the side of considering these helmets being wartime made.

**90th Light** · 01-02-2015, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by DougB View Post

No Chris your back to creating a mystery and muddying the waters again.

These have been considered postwar. Prove they are wartime. Period.

Drop the entire SS train of thought. They're wartime or they are not.

These do not conform to period wartime German refurbs. Ergo the burden of proof is on you to prove why they are wartime. Then and only then can you even think to discuss SS...

Regarding built on spec, Nick why not. It's my theory. Prove me wrong.....

Doug,

the post war case so far has 3 things;

1/ Some mystery dealer ran around the Max in the mid-80's, saying these were CZ for a cancelled Egyptian export contract. Thus everyone accepted that and recited "Post-war" ever since.

2/ Vague black and white images of possible CZ use in the period immediately after WW2

3/ There is one and I repeat "one" helmet with a post war CZ roundel over-painted with a shade of sand/ tan 'brown. No one can confirm if the roundel on this one helmet is painted, a stencil or a decal ? Let alone if it is original

Now please add to this list if I have missed anything. However if this is all you have got. Then it is hardly a case to hang your hat on, rejoice and sing hallelujah.

Now I know every one is saying that they do not have "the feel" or "the look" or the Emperor's blessing. However, the problem with feelings and looks is that they are purely subjective based on perception. The problem with Emperor's is sometimes they are not even wearing clothes.

However, (i) it is a fact that these helmets are a hoard found in the CZ.

(ii) it is a fact there was an SS depot for issuing tropical clothing in that part of the CZ during WW2

(iii) it is a fact that other hoards of 101% original German uniforms & equipment have also been found in that part of the CZ.

These are facts that can be proved and you could take to court.

So please do not ask me to simply brush objective facts which have now come to light under the carpet to try and pretend there might not be a connection or that they even exist.

What I am asking with option 3/ is there any more evidence that might support or prove the connection between these sand/ tan/ brown helmets, and the facts of an SS depot & other hoards of original items found ?

And that is not an unreasonable avenue of investigation regardless of who might disagree with it. If they think it is so wrong then go find the evidence to counter those 3 facts (i) to (iii) that do exist i.e. action is louder than words,

Also with respect,

Chris

**Mr. Hollywood** · 01-02-2015, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

(ii) it is a fact there was an SS depot for issuing tropical clothing in that part of the CZ during WW2

(iii) it is a fact that other hoards of 101% original German uniforms & equipment have also been found in that part of the CZ.

These are facts that can be proved and you could take to court.
Chris

Please post your direct sources for the above.

If either you or NickG would also post the following:

Waffen-SS Vet in question who had recalled the SS depot in Prague, please post his name, and as much info on him as possible so that we might do a quick verification of his service time/ branch of service. It would seem he is the primary source for the SS depot in Prague theory.

If he is not, then please see item #1 and post your direct source for this information.

Thank you.

**Mr. Hollywood** · 01-02-2015, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by foamspoon View Post

When I first started collecting in the late 90’s these helmets were every where. Even when being offered by people that had the most to gain from these being original, dealers, they were being offered as post war creations at almost the cost of parts.

I have handled a bunch and to me they scream post war. Like Doug has said they do not conform to any wartime helmet I have seen.

I think the burden of proof is strongly on the side of considering these helmets being wartime made.

Agreed.

As I said in a previous post.......I purchased my first of these helmets in 1990, then a second in 1991. Both sold for parts and as post war.

**90th Light** · 01-02-2015, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post

Please post your direct sources for the above.

If either you or NickG would also post the following:

Waffen-SS Vet in question who had recalled the SS depot in Prague, please post his name, and as much info on him as possible so that we might do a quick verification of his service time/ branch of service. It would seem he is the primary source for the SS depot in Prague theory.

If he is not, then please see item #1 and post your direct source for this information.

Thank you.

Give me the number of which one you think lacks direct proof and then we will give you the details;

(i) sand/ tan/ brown helmet hoard found in the CZ.

(ii) SS depot (more than 1 ?) for issuing tropical clothing in CZ during WW2

(iii) other hoards of 101% original German uniforms & equipment found in CZ since the end of WW2.

You said in post 732, " I have interned for my undergrad at the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles for 3 years interviewing former Soldiers and holocaust survivors" How many former members of the Waffen SS or other related Nazi party/ police branches did you interviewed, who wanted their names flashed all over the internet today ?

I have not met one in my time. If they trusted me enough to tell some of what they saw/ experience and share photos. They always asked me to leave their name out of it. And this is why;

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...red-war-crimes

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/...-news/1.567671

The list could go on. After all, the 4th SS in Greece were not exactly attending a boy scout camp in their time there. Many are still wanted for what happened.

And if you have such an amazing data base that you can do a "quick verification of his service time/ branch of service" for a Waffen SS NCO or EM then please can I send you the details and number of the owner of an SS "Boker" dagger we have here. Now if he had become an officer, we could find out more but he was only an NCO and there lies the problem, a lack/ loss of records,

Thus you please tell me, what is this amazing record of verification that you claim you can access in this case ?

Chris

**NickG** · 01-02-2015, 09:14 PM

Its direct source info, the father in law of a WAF member...(Polizei Div) The one that shared his family's photo album on the thread.
The soldier marked with the "X", in full Sahariana kit with a tan helmet, remember?

As Chris correctly commented you have a snowballs chance in hell that the name will be published on the web but I guess you can be sent a PM on WAF to quench your thirst. I will see if I can arrange that.

There were 4 designated "SS lager" warehouses in the Prague area, not sure if they were at different physical locations or in one huge installation with 4 separate "departments". That is a fact.
The abundance of unused tropical SS gear at that location has been documented by period resistance and post war photographs of SS "tropen" gear used by various fractions during the uprising and post war years well into the early 50's, to include the national police and the border guards being supplied kit in regimental size! That's how much gear that was out there....and trickling down into the collectors hands ever since the wall came down and all from the Czech Republic...it became just old surplus Czech gear, like the Italian camo parkas and Green SS parkas (2nd model) that their national army adopted for use (ALL from SS originating sources). Again this was also demonstrated in this thread in an effort to build a case that there is a possibility of an SS connection, but nothing substantial, nothing concrete (other than a vet statement).

It was a main distribution hub, a so-called SS bekleidungs Haupt lager or Zentral lager. They also had a main SS vehicle pool installation (distribution, repair) there that dealt with all "Potektorat" SS vehicle matters, but again;

I do not have an agenda, nobody is pushing me. I dont even own a hoard, let alone 1 helmet...I just like solving this mystery and maybe I am connecting the wrong dots, but I have a good feeling about it, this also based on what I hear from some Czech (connected) collectors. NickG

**Mr. Hollywood** · 01-02-2015, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Give me the number of which one you think lacks direct proof and then we will give you the details;

(i) sand/ tan/ brown helmet hoard found in the CZ.

(ii) SS depot (more than 1 ?) for issuing tropical clothing in CZ during WW2

(iii) other hoards of 101% original German uniforms & equipment found in CZ since the end of WW2.

You said in post 732, " I have interned for my undergrad at the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles for 3 years interviewing former Soldiers and holocaust survivors" How many former members of the Waffen SS or other related Nazi party/ police branches did you interviewed, who wanted their names flashed all over the internet today ?

I have not met one in my time. If they trusted me enough to tell some of what they saw/ experience and share photos. They always asked me to leave their name out of it. And this is why;

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...red-war-crimes

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/...-news/1.567671

The list could go on. After all, the 4th SS in Greece were not exactly attending a boy scout camp in their time there. Many are still wanted for what happened.

And if you have such an amazing data base that you can do a "quick verification of his service time/ branch of service" for a Waffen SS NCO or EM then please can I send you the details and number of the owner of an SS "Boker" dagger we have here. Now if he had become an officer, we could find out more but he was only an NCO and there lies the problem, a lack/ loss of records,

Thus you please tell me, what is this amazing record of verification that you claim you can access in this case ?

Chris

Please see my previous post. The quoted information is what I am asking for the direct source.

Regarding the quote of mine above referencing Waffen-SS men I interviewed. I would have no issue with posting their names in the least if it was relevant to a topic or discussion. The only exception are those that the Simon Weisenthal Center chose to keep private, for which are not my interviews but theirs.

I have never met an SS man who wasn't proud of thier service and made no bones about it.

This situation is not the same.

I learned through experience that if you want to solidify an idea there will be times you have to be forth right with information. Just as I did with listing the names of the persons I spoke with on this subject, and sharing their experiences at the show in the late 80's.

Once again please post the name of the vet, and the direct sources you are claiming so that an independent look into both he and the Prague SS depot connection can be verified. Not posting direct sources that can be verified independently is simply not acceptable if you want to be taken seriously.

IF you want to be taken seriously it's time to put up.

Thank you.

**Mr. Hollywood** · 01-02-2015, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Its direct source info, the father in law of a WAF member...(Polizei Div) The one that shared his family's photo album on the WAF thread.
The soldier marked with the "X", in full Sahariana kit with a tan helmet, remember?

As Chris correctly commented you have a snowballs chance in hell that the name will be published on the web but I guess you can be sent a PM on WAF to quench your thirst. I will see if I can arrange that.

There were 4 designated "SS lager" warehouses in the Prague area, not sure if they were at different physical locations or in one huge installation with 4 separate "departments". That is a fact.
The abundance of unused tropical SS gear at that location has been documented by period resistance and post war photographs for SS "tropen" gear used by various fractions during the uprising and post war years well into the early 50's, to include the national police and the border guards being supplied kit in regimental size! That's how much gear that was out there....and trickling down into the collectors hands ever since the wall came down and all from the Czech Republic...it became just old surplus Czech gear, like the Italian camo parkas and Green SS parkas (2nd model) that their national army adopted for use (ALL from SS originating sources). Again this was also demonstrated in this thread in an effort to build a case that there is possibility of an SS connection, but nothing substantial, nothing concrete (other than a vet statement).

It was a main distribution hub, a so-called SS bekleidungs Haupt lager or Zentral lager. They also had a main SS vehicle pool installation (distribution, repair) there that dealt with all "Potektorat" SS vehicle matters, but again;

I do not have an agenda, nobody is pushing me. I dont even own a hoard, let alone 1 helmet...I just like solving this mystery and maybe I am connecting the wrong dots, but I have a good feeling about it, this also based on what I hear from some Czech (connected) collectors. NickG

Thank you for the reply, however without verifying the vets connection it's nothing more than scenery.

You keep saying that all of the SS depots in that region are well documented. Please post an official document, article, book page or whatever proving s connection between Prague, and the supposed SS Depot, so that it can be verified independently. This is the supposed source of these helmets so it's important to verify this information.

If not again, it's smoke and mirrors.

Sending his name via a PM I will still post it to the thread so that others can research this individual as well.

My posts are very simple and clear I am asking for you to prove what your saying without the use of random could be anywhere photos, or those of anything other than what is breing requested.

Documents, publications, orders, television documentry clips.....something that goes beyond your statements that can be checked independently. The 3rd Reich documented virtually everything...surely it should be too difficult to post the pages of your sources. You quote them with such gusto as to even use the German names for validation.

Time to put up.

**NARVIK1940** · 01-02-2015, 09:54 PM

900 posts and counting....

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