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**NickG** · 01-01-2015, 06:18 PM

When these were identified as Italian helmets (beute Luftschutz repaints) by Kangaroo I immediately thought the same thing... perhaps also rebuilt war time TAN helmets? same color, same time frame, same location (CZ)... and as Chris stated coming on the market the same time...(and all assumed post war...)Those came from behind the iron curtain?
This image is from June 1945, so 1 month after the war ended..would they paint these this soon after the war, provided of course these are even (re)painted. Sure look light to me!
The other image same troops (comparison...could very well be repaints...skirts dark...or shade? Who knows? Definately not grau helmets!

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**NickG** · 01-01-2015, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by francis006 View Post

these Italian helmets would accredit the post war theory as they would come with original parts like the one posted but also mixtures of original and post war elements that can only be added during the manufacturing but I'll leave the Italian helmets experts discuss on the subject

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...talian+helmets
I like the photo montage BTW

True it could also swing the other war as being a case for post war rebuilds (all of them) HOWEVER
the German rebuilts came from the EAST (behind the iron curtain).
The Italian refurbished ones, if also coming from the EAST, they must have been war time rebuilts that the Germans moved from Italy to CZ in '43 or later!
Did they come from the east???
otherwise (more likely) they are just WEST rebuilt helmets from Italy (and always been located on this side of the iron curtain...) and refurbished
and used by the post war Italian army to include updated web chinstraps... in a lighter non glossy color (false alarm!!)

So we are mixing things up here???...(to me the color is also not a total match...in the montage).....Nice try though... as we must look at ALL clues!
BUT
it is certainly very interesting to see Czech soldiers in June 1945 wearing Italian helmets in a location just east of Prague side by side with German stahlhelm
in the SAME (light) color with SAME markings! !

Where did the Italian refurb tannish surplus helmets originate from? (EAST or WEST) that would provide an answer to the question if there is a true connection
(in CZ).
I have contacted Dennis to chime in!

**90th Light** · 01-01-2015, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by francis006 View Post

these Italian helmets would accredit the post war theory as they would come with original parts like the one posted but also mixtures of original and post war elements that can only be added during the manufacturing but I'll leave the Italian helmets experts discuss on the subject

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...talian+helmets
I like the photo montage BTW

Sorry but not so fast francis,

this is what Dennis said;

Originally posted by Dennis S View Post

Notice the postwar paint on the liner band that still has on the original paint on it
I THINK THESE HELMETS WERE JUST REPAINTED AND THATS IT.

Now by "post war paint", Dennis is referring to what happened in the CZ which he has assumed as post war. However given the image shown in post number 812 and other images of resistance fighters in May 1945. We now know for sure that there were Italian WW2 helmets in CZ stores with a sand/ tan / brown paint on them before May 1945.

Thus I am restating;

"These Italian helmets could have been repainted to match the German ones for use along side German forces in tropical areas at the time"

Below is an image Dennis posted showing the repaint inside the Italian helmet.

It looks like the pre-May 1945 German examples were built completely from the ground up using a bear metal shell but the Italian examples were painted over the existing Italian paint.

The plot (or in this case the paint) thickens as they say,

Chris

p.s. I am also repeating that the German had to refurbish fire damaged stock in 1944 which included helmets. Also at that time, the captured Italian inventories were brought in as stock for German use.

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potwarpaint.jpg (114.9 KB, 157 views)

**Dennis S** · 01-01-2015, 09:56 PM

I have been asked to comment on the Italian helmet question.

Ok , I must correct myself on the postwar helmet I posted. I never took that much interest in the helmet as it is a postwar reissue. My particular helmet was at birth a WW2 helmet which was taken apart , repainted and put back together. It has all WW2 components except the rivets which are the round dome large hole postwar model. So in escenceit was post war rebuilt , repainted and re riveted with the new model rivets. Not just painted as I previously stated. Italian helmets are very complex with a lot of fables that confuses collectors in confirming a solid WW2 piece......As they went through many transitions .

In Postwar you can find completely new component ones. Partial WW2 component ones , postwar ones solely repainted , and postwar military arsenal altered ones. It would need a thread by itself to clear that up...... Rivet styles, liner stitching , paint , chinstaps , stencils, decals ,etc etc.

On mine the paint is an olive drab I personally don't see any similarities in color with first tannish posted ones although others seem close. Also any postwar foreign used Italian helmets refurbished or manufactured that I have seen have non Italian rivets and chinstraps. I really don't think the Italians were supplying the Czechs with italian helmets or would the Czechs be able to refurbish them in all Italians components. The Italians had no depots or manufacturing facilities in Czechoslovakia . I would think the only Way they could get there hands on Italian helmets near the end of the war would have been from the Germans . This would have occurred after the capitulation of the Italian Royal government as war booty.

Later would be possible by direct sales of completed helmets postwar to Czechoslovakia. As far as the Czechs refurbishing Italian helmets in the same way as the culprit German ones they would need a specific piece of machinery that crimps the rivets in a certain way. So other than Repainting I think that is all the Czechs would be capable of doing postwar .The Italians would not sell the Czechs new italian style rivets to refurbish there own stolen helmets.

Pertaining to The Italian helmet shown as possible part of the horde of German helmets that Dennis J showed in his post. I don't have a clue if it actually came from the Czechs Or is just sold off Italian surplus during the same time. I believe the latter. From the photo I can't tell if it's a reconditioned WW2 one or a postwar manufactured one. In my opinion it is an italian arsenal refurbished helmet like mine . I must see all the components to make that precise determination.
If by chance , complete component Italian Helmets came with the German ones from the Czech Republic they were sold , manufactured or refurbished by the Italians in the same condition postwar.

The claim that the surplus Italian helmets came out of Czechoslovakia is just more hearsay. The more likely story is the Italians themselves sold off these helmets after the m33 helmet became obsolete by their adoption of the Kevlar close to the same time frame.

For those that think it's the same paint either way and I was curious myself. I made a slight sacrifice of my Italiam post war Helmet not to leave any doubts one way or the other. I understand the paint of the culprit German tan ones is hard as nails and impossible to remove.

So I did a little Bubba scientific experiment , I took a little acetone to a swab
And tried to remove the paint on the back inside of the shell.

The analysis is the top olive paint came right off to reveal 60's brown that the italian army used ( not to be confused with 40's Gloppy Spanish brown) . Peaking out under the brown is the WW2 green.

No need to take my word for it. Below is the photo.

I don't think this truly proves anything other that the Italian olive and the Czech
Painted tan have nothing in common other slight similarity in color.

Also, the Italian helmets worn by the Czech resistance in photos are not the post war surplus Italian helmets shown in the thread .

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image.jpg (124.2 KB, 142 views)

**DougB** · 01-01-2015, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

I knew that was coming ...NO, the reenactor photo was not shown as " proof" for these helmets to exist as SS. As explained in the text it was merely added to illustrate that the SS also wore NON sahariana uniforms...Some here might be more into just helmets, so I wanted to make that clear! a uniform illustration!!
It was added, as the period photo does NOT show clearly any SS uniform yokes (Italian style) which most collectors associate (solely) with SS tropical uniforms...
That's all. Its clearly explained in the text! (the SS also wore "traditional cut tropical uniforms"... ) as shown with the reenactor impression...! Totally benign!

Regarding the period photo: in my view the helmets look far too light in color for these to be field gray and more in line with the tan colored uniforms,
so a totally matching "Sudfront look". Few images exist of this look so I thought it was worth adding (along with a uniform explanation)
but that's also just an opinion of course! The guy standing in the truck is either a civilian in a tan suit or another trooper with I imagine an M41 tropical SS field cap
(the more common "Sudfront look" while on occupation duty in places like Greece!) I was more focusing on the light colored helmets of course...
Btw Kangaroo is not a believer btw, but to me his images helped catagorise these!
I will leave it up to the readers to draw their own conclusions. It is an interesting mystery for sure!

Happy New Year!

Nick, showing uniforms has nothing to do with the helmet. Despite the depot and "maybe" they were in the same clothing depot statements you and Chris keep defaulting to.

Readers can draw their own conclusions if led down the garden path Nick with a plethora of maybes, could be's, possibly's, might have beens, and now "in my view" and "in my opinion" those are the "RAL tan German (SS) Sudfront" helmets.

Take any apple green, or feldgrau helmet outside, and photograph it in direct sunlight. Change the pic to black and white, and you get that photo. The sunlight shows as overexposed. Even studio lighting will do the same.

Now make it an old lo-res grainy black and white photo. You just cannot call these a tan helmet. But again, we are in never never land here with "your opinion" which is the ONLY opinion that seems to matter as anyone else's, including mine (as you show with your reply) is flushed down your collector toilet instantly.

When you get an actual document Nick, call me. Until then, it seems to me your on a merry go round that will never end.

**DougB** · 01-01-2015, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Doug,

If we are going to have a guideline of "open research" for this thread. Then what Nick is doing is acceptable within those guidelines. If one flicks through the thread from start to finish, the photos are serving purpose and adding to the study.

Anyone reading this can study the photos and draw their own analysis from them or agree with what Nick is trying to illustate.

And before I get my head bitten off again on the "open research" thing, I am not being a "smart-alec" this time,

Chris

With all due respect Chris the only thing those photos do is support your theory these helmets were in some mystery clothing depot. They do not support anything else, I am sorry. The entire thing is a theory and if enough period photos showing "maybe" tan German helmets along with a plethora of SS Sahariana's "maybe" people will form a different opinion.

We are now discussing slight microshades of tan difference in helmets now even!

And Nick is telling the world he can tell these are the "tan" SS helmets he wants them to be so badly in the bw photos.

OK, so which tan is it now, the greenish tan or the slightly tannish tan? Maybe the Italian tan. Or the "RAL" Tan which maybe matched Warsaw Pact tan?

And reenactor pics, please dont even waste bandwidth posting that nonsense in this thread. Well, might as well, its "open research" which I guess means anything goes.

In "Nicks opinion and view" those helmets in that photo are tan.

in "my opinion" they are not.

But this thread has gotten to be from "open research" to, if I repeat something enough times it will be the truth.

Nick keeps repeating the same thing ad nauseum, and keep grasping at straws, now weve added Italian helmets, posting the same reenactor photos, keep posting bw uniform photos, over and over and over and over and over and over again, it is coming to a conclusion from repetition and not from any sort of fact.

Like I said about 14 pages ago, this thread was akin to a Chinese Water Torture Test. I thought that was going to change but nothing has changed, uniform photos, black and white photos that are "fact" but now "Nicks opinion" (which is as good as being a FACT apparently).

Nothing has changed.

If real helmet collectors had not begun to have challenged Nick, yourself, Kevin, and Aries (who apparently Kevin and Aries are sitting on stockpiles of these), these would already be SS Polizei helmets. For sale at a dealer site near you for $3000 a pop.

I am tired of hearing that Nicks opinion is the only one that counts. Again, we are back to laughing stock territory of a thread which was too bad.

This should have been, hey, guys, we discovered something here, these are not Egyptian helmets.

But to have the entire thread co-opted into making collectors believe these are SS helmets when even the basic timing doesn't add up notwithstanding common practice on reissuing helmets in all theatres of war by the Germans, has been irresponsible as I said before and I say it again.

Sorry, there is enough like I said that I am 99% convinced they are postwar. 1% that "maybe" they were German. And 101% convinced if so, that these were never intended solely for the use of the SS.

Time to sh1t or get off the pot. Show a document, order or something written in the divisional history that proves this.

**Dennis S** · 01-01-2015, 10:39 PM

I missed the last two photos of Dennis J helmet. Postwar refurbished with wartime components and postwar rivet by Italians for Italians . Maybe the same dealer was peddling them but, I have extreme doubts these came from Czech land.

If you read my prior post with the paint test they are in my opinion out of the discussion by either side .

**NickG** · 01-01-2015, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by DougB View Post

Nick, showing uniforms has nothing to do with the helmet. Despite the depot and "maybe" they were in the same clothing depot statements you and Chris keep defaulting to.

Readers can draw their own conclusions if led down the garden path Nick with a plethora of maybes, could be's, possibly's, might have beens, and now "in my view" and "in my opinion" those are the "RAL tan German (SS) Sudfront" helmets.

Take any apple green, or feldgrau helmet outside, and photograph it in direct sunlight. Change the pic to black and white, and you get that photo. The sunlight shows as overexposed. Even studio lighting will do the same.

Now make it an old lo-res grainy black and white photo. You just cannot call these a tan helmet. But again, we are in never never land here with "your opinion" which is the ONLY opinion that seems to matter as anyone else's, including mine (as you show with your reply) is flushed down your collector toilet instantly.

When you get an actual document Nick, call me. Until then, it seems to me your on a merry go round that will never end.

Doug:
OK so over-exposed and appearing lighter than what they are...that's a believable opinion. The Greek parade photos are certainly show tan helmets as are the SS funeral photos so those uniform images definitely served a purpose showing that tan colored helmets were the norm in Greece...therefor showing photos is not a wasted effort as it shows the need in huge quantities, as Chris already explained.
Just get over it. If you don't like this approach just get off the Merry-go-round. Easy.
And I do of course agree that non tan helmets can appear much lighter than they are under certain lighting conditions. Yes. For sure apple green is a problem.
That is EXACTLY why showing uniforms in a tan color along with helmets is so important as it gives the BiGGER picture.....(as opposed to just close up images of helmets...)
A possible tan helmet worn IN CONJUNCTION with a tan uniform has a better chance of the helmet really being tan, as opposed to a possible tan helmet shown being worn with a continental field gray uniform. It IMPROVES the possibility that it's is TRULY tan a match, a uniform ensemble. The entire composition being presented that way and people can draw their own conclusions. (Or just complain...)
I am just sharing my opinion. People can just make their own mind up. OK I will sit back as a spectator and see how this develops.

Dennis:
I had some doubts about a possible connection...Anyway thanks for going the extra mile Dennis.
The lighter than WW2 text book Italian helmets therefor have no relationship with any rebuilt light colored stahlhelms.
Still Worth the investigation. (Time and effort) thanks for sharing your expertise. That's what forums are all about.

**90th Light** · 01-01-2015, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Dennis S View Post

I missed the last two photos of Dennis J helmet. Postwar refurbished with wartime components and postwar rivet by Italians for Italians . Maybe the same dealer was peddling them but, I have extreme doubts these came from Czech land.

If you read my prior post with the paint test they are in my opinion out of the discussion by either side .

Thanks Dennis,

very interesting, I was hoping you might comment.

Are there any of the Italian helmets from the CZ, May 1945 in any collections ?

It is interesting that they seem to have had quite a few at the time,

Chris

**DougB** · 01-01-2015, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Doug:
OK so over-exposed and appearing lighter than what they are...that's a believable opinion. The Greek parade photos are certainly show tan helmets as are the SS funeral photos so those uniform images definitely served a purpose showing that tan colored helmets were the norm in Greece...therefor showing photos is not a wasted effort as it shows the need in huge quantities, as Chris already explained.
Just get over it. If you don't like this approach just get off the Merry-go-round. Easy.
And I do of course agree that non tan helmets can appear much lighter than they are under certain lighting conditions. Yes. For sure apple green is a problem.
That is EXACTLY why showing uniforms in a tan color along with helmets is so important as it gives the BiGGER picture.....(as opposed to just close up images of helmets...)
A possible tan helmet worn IN CONJUNCTION with a tan uniform has a better chance of the helmet really being tan, as opposed to a possible tan helmet shown being worn with a continental field gray uniform. It IMPROVES the possibility that it's is TRULY tan a match, a uniform ensemble. The entire composition being presented that way and people can draw their own conclusions. (Or just complain...)
I am just sharing my opinion. People can just make their own mind up. OK I will sit back as a spectator and see how this develops.

Dennis:
I had some doubts about a possible connection...Anyway thanks for going the extra mile Dennis.
The lighter than WW2 text book Italian helmets therefor have no relationship with any rebuilt light colored stahlhelms.
Still Worth the investigation. (Time and effort) thanks for sharing your expertise. That's what forums are all about.

Hi Nick, that point regarding the ensemble was well made about 25 pages ago.

If the approach is to be a merry go round then yes I want no part of it. I get dizzy fast and throw up.

But the responsible side of the helmet collector in me says to stay on to guard against a possible incorrect conclusion being drawn based on very thin evidence.

Thank you for recognizing those photos can be overexposed feldgrau or apple green helmets.

Cheers
Doug

**NickG** · 01-01-2015, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by DougB View Post

Hi Nick, that point regarding the ensemble was well made about 25 pages ago.

If the approach is to be a merry go round then yes I want no part of it. I get dizzy fast and throw up.

But the responsible side of the helmet collector in me says to stay on to guard against a possible incorrect conclusion being drawn based on very thin evidence.

Thank you for recognizing those photos can be overexposed feldgrau or apple green helmets.

Cheers
Doug

I concur and you are welcome! Happy New Year!

**90th Light** · 01-01-2015, 11:47 PM

Doug,

with all due respect, you are equally guilty of now trying to drive the outcome in the direction that you believe. You are repeating over and over again that you do not approve of Nick's method and that in your opinion the helmets have to be post war because they just have to be.

Well, the reality is, no one here has yet solved this one and none of us can yet conclude.

For example, I notice no-one has posted another WW2 German helmet with a CZ roundel on it. If that is a conclusive find then where are the rest ?

Same with dome stamps, not one more example has emerged.

The photos are an important original record of the time but they are not fool proof.

The rein-actor images provide a reconstruction of the scene.

If Nick chooses to persevere with this to find the answers then he is to be commended, not resented.

After all, did Colonel Saunders not have to approach over 1000+ restaurants to find a partner and did not Ho Chi Minh say, impatience for results was a western weakness that could be exploited.

Who knows what may yet emerge because of this ongoing debate,

Chris

**Blacksmith Life** · 01-02-2015, 01:30 AM

Rotisserie

Gentlemen - how do we bring this circular discussion to resolution, as it truly is going nowhere - and is obviously getting frustrating for some? Frustration is understandable, as I feel like we're on the fourth or fifth trip around the maypole, and just regurgitating the same material.

There is a big difference between saying "I don't believe a fact is true" and "I believe a fact is false", from a burden of proof perspective. Specifically, what I've continually read, is requests from skeptical forum members for proof. Prove that these helmets are SS helmets, as (essentially) I don't believe that is true.

I think the tailspin begins, as the response has effectively been 'prove that they're not'. This has to take the form of proving that they are something other (Egyptian, Czech, etc).

That request to prove the negative departs from logic, and only serves to 'muddy' the discussion - maybe tactically.

So, respectfully, here is what I propose: For those hypothesizing these to be SS helmets, collect your data / evidence, build your premises, and prove your theory. A way to NOT do that, is to try and disprove that they are anything else - that's basically trying to prove something is blue, by proving that it's not any other color.

To prove these as SS helmets, do JUST that - nothing more or less. Don't try proving what they're not, asking others to prove they're not SS, and so forth. I think drawing in all of these other theories and arguments is what has caused this thread to languish so.

If you lack the evidence to prove your theory, it is admirable to say so.

Hopefully you don't mind me saying so, but to keep repeating the same things is unlikely to change the reaction / outcome.

Warm regards.

**DougB** · 01-02-2015, 01:30 AM

No Chris, I disagree, I have been a bystander throughout all of this and only voiced a strong concern when I saw claims being made that were fact when it was still theory.

When these claims were repeated I repeated my questions, so I have only reacted to what has been shown by asking the same questions which still arent answered, ergo no claim of fact or truth can be made.

Certainly there is something to be said for pushing on, however I really do not believe that a 56 page thread will solve this satisfactorily for all concerned. To ask for input, photos, etc certainly use the power of the forum.

There could be years of research ahead, I suggest be patient as you say, and build then present a case that proves the theory.

But there has been this rush to judgement and jumping to conclusions that I have disagreed, both the methodology and many of the conclusions.

I am not trying to point the discussion one way or the other, I remain 1% open that these were wartime. A small chance but my mind is not closed. I just think its time to wind down and dig offline.

Finally I dont resent Nick or anyone. I just want to make sure all opinions count and not just those building a case. I think youd agree that it serves everyone if this theory if proven real, is bulletproof. I have just been firing a few bullets in that regard, with no animosity to anyone involved.

Cheers
Doug

**NickG** · 01-02-2015, 01:50 AM

"Verrrry interesting, but stupid" (to rush things and draw the wrong conclusions)!!!
Something for those who remember TV in the States in the late '60's- early 70's!

I agree in parts with Chris and I agree also in parts with Doug!

My enthusiasm and eagerness to find answers to this quest got the better of me !
All is well in "helmet land", no animosity towards anyone!!!! Keep digging brothers!!

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