My new DAK helmets

[NickG]

Hi Kevin ,

Very interresting that you have so many of these helmets kept over the years.
I really would like to know if all these helmets were refittet with parts of the same maker.

As far as I can remember some of these helmets I owned years ago had chinstraps from G.Singer , Klattau liners from B&C Litzmannstadt and
split pins from MSS (Matthias Salcher & Söhne Wagstadt)

If you have your helmets at hand , could you have a look ?


Best regards
Bernhard

Here's some more interesting food for thought on these source identified helmet parts used for these "Czech-German" tan helmets :
The so-called "German" parts geography:

-Rivets (Split pins or Splinte) came from "MSS, Mathias Salcher und Söhne Wagstadt", = Sudetenland...in Czech territoty it's in Czech "Matyáš Salcher a synové, a.s."

-Liners/chinstraps from "G. SINGER, KLATTAU Klattau" was a German re-named (Czech) city in the Sudetenland in Czech territory...
-Liners from "B&C Litzmannstadt" in (occupied) Poland! Litzmannstadt, the German name for Lodz was the second largest ghetto in Poland, after the Warsaw ghetto.
It was turned into a major industrial center for making German war supplies. These liner band were most likely made by the hands of Jewish slave laborers...so SS controlled.

All the parts were coming from (SS controlled) occupied Poland and Czech territories...Fits the bill for war time production, geographically it all makes sense!
If these were post war (late 40's-50's) rebuilds for the Egyptian army, with scrapped together parts, is it a mear coincidence that these parts were concentrated in those areas?
and from known war time locally concentrated supplier sources? as opposed to post war reproduced (using Czech made copy parts without German language, RBNr etc...)?

Can any other parts on these be identified by owners of such helmets?

So yes "German parts" but in fact German parts from war time Czech-Polish suppliers, not just slapped together post war with whatever parts, from where ever!!
To me this is indicative of war time production...and the paint is einheitz farbe vehicle tan (Dunbkelgelb), as used by Skoda for Czech made German vehicles...

A quite interresting fact is that both the Skoda factory and the depot were located
in the same town then : Mlada Boleslav ( Jung Bunzlau ).

Is that a mear coincidence also?
The SS depot Jung Bunzlau on the outskirts of Prague, where Skoda was located using this dunkelgelb "einheitzfarbe" vehicle paint ? No way, it's Egyptian spec paint!!!
These helmets were dismissed because they did not have the proper DAK tan paint, but its from a different time span, post 1943 era rebuilds...nothing to do with DAK!

[msteve21]

Dak

An interesting thread and thanks to all those that have made constructive comments

One point I think needs investigating, are there any know Egyptian army helmets about, or photos of these been worn?

Would go a long way in sorting fact from fiction re; if the story is actually true about these helmets

Mark S

[kevinpre45]

late War

Hello again! I will post info on makers and bands and split pins(don't worry Im not takn them apart! LOL) as time permits! As far as "just sitting on a shelf" is concernend I have several M-35s that were re-worked so Im sure some saw some action! Also there are several different shades of the paint which in my opinion correct. I have always beleaved these were real. I have 130+ helmets and I bought the late war tan ones for 50 bucks apiece years ago when you couldn't give one away!
Kevin
PS none are for sale @ moment!

[90th Light]

An interesting thread and thanks to all those that have made constructive comments

One point I think needs investigating, are there any know Egyptian army helmets about, or photos of these been worn?

Would go a long way in sorting fact from fiction re; if the story is actually true about these helmets

Mark S

I posted the answer to your question in post number 78 but I have posted it again here for all to read. It answers exactly what you ask.

What is interesting about this thread is no evidence what so ever has yet emerged in regard to the Egyptian or demand after WW2 for refurbished CZ helmets despite all the posts so far on the subject.

However, more and more links to the later half of WW2 and the SS industry/ depot for tropical uniforms in the CZ connection for these helmets is coming to light, The ducks look to be lining up in a row

Chris

There has has been no evidence found of German helmets going to Egypt from Czechoslovakia in the 1950's.

There are no order forms, no production notes, no invoices, no delivery documents, no address labels or photos. Not one helmet ever arrived in Egypt even as a test sample. No one in Egypt ever saw a German helmet like this at the time. The Egyptians may have had helmets left behind by the German in the period 1941-43 but they did not have any from Czechoslovakia in the 1950's.

Someone came up with a theory that because these helmets were a mustard brown colour and Egypt had some equipment which was a similar shade of colour then may be they were intended to be sold to Egypt after WW2.

Then someone else heard that and thought this unproved theory sounded logical. It grew from there. Someone told someone else who told someone else. The theory progressively made its way from one collector circle to another. Eventually it was being quoted in books and repeated at one show after another.

However, it was based on nothing and only one possible theory floated at the time for which no proof of any form has ever emerged.

All that is known, these helmets were found in mass carefully stored in a warehouse in Czechoslovakia. No one knows who put them there, when or why.

The helmets were found, purchased cheap and then brought from what was called the "East" at the time to be sold in the "West" & USA.

Once they appeared on the market, the rumours began about who and what they had been made for. This has continued to this day,

Chris

[Dennis J]

What I was told years ago was they never made it to Egypt....that's why they came out CZ because they were in a warehouse and not sent to Egypt.

Dennis J

[NickG]

What I was told years ago was they never made it to Egypt....that's why they came out CZ because they were in a warehouse and not sent to Egypt.

Dennis J

Were you told this by a Czech source or just hearsay US source? (not adequately substantiated whatsoever)

Let me repeat what a Czech source told me (a local source opinion):
If these truly were for export - it probably would have been in the 50s and by then one would think the Czechs would have used different liner pins - different liners and definetly not RBN numbered or German named chin cords - Czech pre and post war chin cords are different from the German ones. The Czech made a lot of German style equipment into the 50s, but did not use RBNr's -
(as they appear in many of these helmets)

and witnessed by another source:
Most of them in a mint condition but many came very rusty also ! The ones which were on the bottom of the pile in the cellar where a lot were found,still wrapped in the stock paper ...
So still wrapped in stock paper and still completely German manufactured (parts-wise...) That's an indicator these were period pre-'45 assembled and stored, not some later post war foreign contract from the 50's and slapped together from left-over parts and reconditioned with Czech parts for export...Again I agree mixed parts helmets do exist and those were reconditioned for local use later (civil defence) not export!
For export they would have ALL been 100% identical (twins) per a foreign military dictated spec. and that's not the case. To me still war time German with others probably post war fixed up (repaired) for Czech use, not for export, no order has come to light, no proof whatsoever.BASTA!

[Paul.B.]

Is there a possibility these helmets were built for the new CZ army right after
WW2 from wartime parts and remained unused when the Russians supplied CZ?
Another point to consider is that the Russian supplied weapons that were sent to
Egypt went there from CZ.
Maybe this was where the Egypt connection came into it but obviously CZ was involved and possibly stood a chance to make some money with the sale of
refurbished WW2 German equipment it had no use for until the Russians became
involved?.
This also raises the possibility that they are WW2 surplus that were destined for Egypt but as already stated no evidence has come to light there is a Egyptian connection.
Really interesting thread guys, lets keep it going!.

[NickG]

Well lets look at the geo-political period and country ties early post war..Egypt's war period (1940's) were of course British controlled, British dominated and early post war training was even still done by the British as well...who remained in that region after the war (this image from Egypt in 1946, note British troops some with turtle helmets).
It was only later in the 1950's when the Egyptian army expanded (more independently)and was sourcing on their own (mostly surplus gear) post British period...and it was also in the 1950's when Soviet weapons destined for Egypt were delivered ,which makes sense...(and perhaps done through Czechoslaovakia as a shipping point. ) Who knows?

Czechoslavakia was becoming more in the sphere of the USSR after 1948 when the communist coupe d'etat took place...So whatever was negotiated could NOT have been right after WW2 (Egypt still being firmly under British control), MUST have been in the 1950's for sure. In the 1950's many Germans did get involved with advising the Egyptian military (influencing the purchase of German style helmets perhaps??? but I doubt it!)
Regardless, if any helmet deal was done it was done in the 1950's when CZ became firmly communist and also when it was cancelled, if the story is true....
so perhaps as much as decade or so AFTER WW2...In the btw 1950's the Suez Canal crisis took place (1956) which probably caused an arms race because of the tensions, a "stand off" with Israel...that's when they went procuring... a much later time frame!

Based on that time frame why would helmets have been reconditioned for that procurement contract almost a decade later using strictly war time parts??
So late after the war??? That does not make any sense...None of these hemets could have existed with 100% war time parts, war time (1943 ordnance) paint, while being refurbished in the 1950's to meet a foreign export delivery? This is how many were found. Basically time capsules but in a strange non DAK color...so people did not trust these, but liked the parts so much, that they were disassembled for the parts, cannabalized for restoring German helmets in a more traditional paint color...

To my knowledge no postwar CZ gear/materials were used in this "German" RAL paint color so if reconditioned for their local army why are these in this color? A color picked for the Czech civil defence services perhaps ? So many helmets? Also does not make sense...W-SS Süd front makes more sense to me!

[Tim O'Keefe]

"I have found lots of tropical SS uniforms and pith helmets in Prague - many pith helmets without insignia - not even holes for insignia - which supports that large stocks of tropical items were there." Thanks Nick

A number of tropenhelms & webb gear was found in or near the depot near Prague post war. Most collectors assumed they were LW as they are light in color with natural chinstraps etc, not olive like the Herr version. Very few even had the holes punched for the shields, however its now quite likely that they were ss.

I had heard the Egyptian connection years ago but its looking less & less probable at this point. Great thread guys

[GAMS1]

Another point in the story when not already mentioned in this thread .
For the last 30 years we found piles of CZ firemen german reissued helmets painted in black, but some were painted in this sand colour as a basic colour and then repainted in black by the CZ services post 45 !
Some black helmets were even still with original green or blue paint and decals ( ! ) under that black colour ...
The only helmets which really saw action in the CZ forces post war were totally repainted in a very typical kaki colour ( not sand ) and used by the border guards .
Most of them with german parts ( nice lion stamp on the straps ) , some with simplified CZ liners+straps .
This export contract rumours could have come from the fact that the CZ government exported a lot of weapons+bayonets post war for example, german war surplus or a new fabrication made to be more commercial as german weapons had a good reputation in the third world ( Algeria,Israel ... )
It's a fact that they supplied the algerian FLN with weapons but not with helmets !
Nick

[Jean-Loup]

"Here's some more interesting food for thought on these source identified helmet parts used for these "Czech-German" tan helmets :
The so-called "German" parts geography:
-Rivets (Split pins or Splinte) came from "MSS, Mathias Salcher und Söhne Wagstadt", = Sudetenland...in Czech territoty it's in Czech "Matyáš Salcher a synové, a.s."
-Liners/chinstraps from "G. SINGER, KLATTAU Klattau" was a German re-named (Czech) city in the Sudetenland in Czech territory...
-Liners from "B&C Litzmannstadt" in (occupied) Poland! Litzmannstadt, the German name for Lodz was the second largest ghetto in Poland, after the Warsaw ghetto.
It was turned into a major industrial center for making German war supplies. These liner band were most likely made by the hands of Jewish slave laborers...so SS controlled.
All the parts were coming from (SS controlled) occupied Poland and Czech territories...Fits the bill for war time production, geographically it all makes sense!"


If the helmets were assembled post war from stock, then it would also make sense that they would all be assembled from localy produced leftover stock; and no with stocks from unreachable areas. So this does not seem to be a valid argument to proove the helmets were wartime assembled.

[Edelweiss]

So this does not seem to be a valid argument to proove the helmets were wartime assembled.

Right. But then JL, I guess that only period detailled photos will be a "valid argument". And I said "detailled" intentionally, as the ones posted are not, so far, valid enough either ; a point with which I'm forced to agree by the way, but if not true evidence, these pics are more than strong clues anyway.

But so far too, what do we have as "valid argument", I mean verifiable fact or true evidence on the other side of the scale ?

[NickG]

It could be concluded either way...If these parts are geographically correct for local war time refurbishing (Czech-Polish German suppliers) its a war time contract...
a pre '45 refurbishing job! Forget the Egypt connection theory with post war assembled from surplus parts from where-ever to fullfill an export order!
Post war rebuilds from whatever parts, located, scrounged around, like from left over helmets from retreating/surrendering German forces from anywhere
+ copied post '45 Czech parts, lacking German codes...would mean a huge big mix or parts. I am strongly leaning towards the former theory !

This is what such a soldier would have looked like, having received minty supplies from this depot with a refurbished helmet. Here M40, not M42)
Perhaps Jean DelaGarde (H&C) Militaria Magazine got it right after all?
This impression btw shows nothing but MINTY SS tropical gear, so in unissued condition, so from unissued stocks, meaning from that Czech SS depot location, including the helmet! To me this is not far-fetched at all!

BTW yes those sun helmets with light khaki edges (as seen by Czech resistance fighters in down town Prague wearing tropical SS from head to toe)
pith helmets with no pin holes and are most likely also a similar SS supply contract, again in unissued condition, war time stocks without shields from that same SS supply depot in Prague and most post war refurbished with LW insignia for collectors...(LW sun helmet insignia are easy to come by...)

[90th Light]

"

If the helmets were assembled post war from stock, then it would also make sense that they would all be assembled from localy produced leftover stock; and no with stocks from unreachable areas. So this does not seem to be a valid argument to proove the helmets were wartime assembled.

I do not know if this is an argument for post-war assembly of these helmets but it is certainly a case for war-time manufacture or refurbishment.

Uniform items, caps and tunics/breeches/trousers/shorts and helmets, were manufactured within the geographical areas covered by certain Wehrkreis by the Germans during WW2. The close proximity of the location of unit base depots and the location of factories making uniforms/ helmets or parts would indicate surely that it was faster and more efficient to process all uniform/ helmets/ parts by the central issuing depot(s) in this case located in the CZ. Drawing uniform items and parts manufactured in close range and not going across the boundaries that separated one Wehrkreis from another is both logistically and economically efficient and leads to a greater economy of scale.

Why would the Wehrmacht or SS give a contract to a firm sending its material first to a main issuing depot in another city thus making for double handling and logistical problems in transferring items from one Wehrkreis administrative centre to another. It makes no sense to believe helmet parts attributed to firms outside the areas served by the CZ clothing depot(s) for Wehrmacht or SS would have been used if this could have be avoided and was not absolutely necessary at the time.

The same manufacturing situation/ set-up/ cooperation applies to badge manufacturers in Ludenshield/ Lüdenscheid for example,

Chris

[NickG]

Some more feedback received today from my Czech expert contact:
Interesting read!

__________________________________________________ _____

Also to add - the postwar Czech used fire helmets often had Czech style liners and chin cords that were riveted instead of sewn. The helmets were sometimes stripped and painted black - sometimes just painted right over the old paint and decals, all of these tan helmets were stripped or painted tan from the beginning.

A lot of Czech items are very similar to German - the only difference being rivets used instead of sewing - so if these helmets were indeed for export the chin cords would have minimally been riveted and not German style made with sewing

In addition all the German surplus from WW2 the Czechs used is stamped with crossed swords - none of these helmets have those markings. The Czechs usually put Czech names/codes/marks on their export items too - like the pre war VZ 23 bayonets or ZB arms.

I went through books with pictures of Czech soldiers from 1945 to early 50s and found that in the 45 to 49 time frame mostly used the prewar VZ32 helmet but some wore German helmets but they are all dark colored in the pictures not tan/yellow

If indeed these helmets were refurbished for the Czech army then they wouldn't be tan - too green of a country side - all Czech helmets are green.

If for export to Egypt why wouldn't one do cloth chinstraps for Egypt instead of leather - Czechs used cloth chin cords on some earlier helmet models.

From a Czech book - the Czech army 1945 to 1955 - quotes on page 53 that that Czechs did very little export postwar and a majority of that was to Jugoslavia and it ended in 1948.

Plus the book states that in 1945 there was no manufacturing and the Czech republic had to import equipment for its army from the allies and USSR. Budgets were extremely tight up until 1948 and troops even wore combinations of civilian clothes with army clothes. In a state like that no one would have been bothering to refurbish German helmets in tan.

In 1948 the commies took over and the Russian influence came in - from1949forward only Ssh39 Russian helmets show up in the pictures although German arms remained.

The book states that all focus went on trying to get things up and running post war - repairing trucks/tanks, camps and just securing food and medicine - in this environment I don't think anyone was repainting helmets and making chin straps with German markings

In 1948 an agreement was signed with USSR that they would supply the Czech republic with arms - and the switchover from allied and German equipment began - was not fully completed till 1953.

In 1953 the Czechs started making their own version of the Russian Ssh39 helmet.

Having a hard time with these facts understanding when these tan/yellow helmets would have been made post war.

Keep up the good work Nick!
__________________________________

I also found this out today!
1 of the 2 helmets that started this thread is now being offered for $975 .. a "believer" price!!